Just to see what gets made out of this

[Celest]

Which is why what they are doing is wrong. Still doesnt make it atheistic.

[Brugdor]

Which is why what they are doing is wrong. Still doesnt make it atheistic.

Ah so let me get this straight. When a christian politician is trying to push for policies that agree with his/her beliefs then the left is free to cry "Oh nooes! Theocracy! They are trying to limit our rights based on their religion!!!" but when an atheist does the same thing in order to limit freedom of religion it has nothing to do with atheism?

[Celest]

If they were actually forcing Atheism, I'd agree with the sentament you are presenting.


Again, though, they arnt forcing Atheism. Forcing limits on religion != Atheism and if they were truely forcing Atheism onto their people, then the mere beleif in a god would be illegal. While under such a system, religion doesnt thrive.. that is a far cry from an active policy of abolishing religion.


Show where they are actively trying to abolish all religion then you can equate their policy to forcing atheism. Until you can actually demostrate a clear desire to eleminate religion(as opposed to just limiting it for the purpose of exerting state control), then you are just spouting McCarthism( you know, the source of the whole communist=atheist BS in the first place)

[Brugdor]

If they were actually forcing Atheism, I'd agree with the sentament you are presenting.


Again, though, they arnt forcing Atheism. Forcing limits on religion != Atheism and if they were truely forcing Atheism onto their people, then the mere beleif in a god would be illegal. While under such a system, religion doesnt thrive.. that is a far cry from an active policy of abolishing religion.


Show where they are actively trying to abolish all religion then you can equate their policy to forcing atheism. Until you can actually demostrate a clear desire to eleminate religion(as opposed to just limiting it for the purpose of exerting state control), then you are just spouting McCarthism( you know, the source of the whole communist=atheist BS in the first place)

There's no way to make the belief in God illegal unless you're a mind reader. They are doing the best they can to stamp it out in those countries without having the people revolt. They give them pseudo religious freedom as an illusion to keep them pacified.

[Celest]

And the fact of the matter is that religion isnt illegal. Limited, yes, illegal, no.


Again, it's wrong to have limited religion but how you jump from 'limited religion' to 'forced atheism' is beyond me and fairly paranoid.

[Brugdor]

And the fact of the matter is that religion isnt illegal. Limited, yes, illegal, no.


Again, it's wrong to have limited religion but how you jump from 'limited religion' to 'forced atheism' is beyond me and fairly paranoid.

I'm just making the same leap that the left does under the same circumstances when it's a christian conservative in power.

[Celest]

Except that the 'right' doesnt make any attempt to hide where they get their policies from. I mean, hell, come on.. faith baised initiative?

It's not a leap of faith when those who are implementing it actively acknowledge the source.

[Brugdor]

Except that the 'right' doesnt make any attempt to hide where they get their policies from. I mean, hell, come on.. faith baised initiative?

It's not a leap of faith when those who are implementing it actively acknowledge the source.

Ahhh so dishonesty is the trick?

[Celest]

More like actions(or in this case, lack of action).


Again, while communist states have limited religion, they have yet to even attempt the step of abolishing it.


Would you like to continue to go around in circles?

[Brugdor]

Would you like to continue to go around in circles?

Nah. I just consider it another double standard from your side of the fence and move on.

[Celest]

Didnt know I had a 'side of the fence'. *shrugs*


If you want to compare apples to tangerines, though, go right ahead.


*edits to add*

To clarify, the only thing that im really 'liberal' about are social issues. I fall more along the conservative side when it comes to fiscal considerations.

[Celest]

To add another comment.. Im not even sure where you are getting the 'double standard' from anyways.


Im not denying that what they are doing is 'bad' and 'wrong'. Im just attempting to correct your ficticious idea that this is somehow being done out of a desire to force Atheism onto the people when those states havent even taken the step to 'force atheism', just to limit the power of religion in comparison to their own power.. which isnt, in any way, an atheistic ideal.

[Chucara]

Well, actually the original communist manifesto required a complete abolishment of religion:

"There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience."

However, most "implementations" of communism has very little to do with actual communism as originally intended. Whether communism is atheist depends on how you define communism: as the original ideas of the communist manifesto, or as country X's version of communism. They will differ vastly.

[Solwyn]

I'm lost as to which assertions were mine or others. To clarify, here are my takes:

1) Communism may or may not be inherently atheist. The original manifesto calls for an abolishment of religion but only as it exists as political entity. It does not call for the abolishment of spiritual philosophy but that such philosophy is of course the "opiate of the masses." My point was that people who call Pius a fascist are off-base as he was primarily anti-communist.

2) Celest: If your assertion is that Christianity as a whole engaged in anti-semitic behavior on an institutional basis you're also asserting that they were aware of this as differing from the societal norm of all religion, which was not the case. All big three monotheistic religions assert exclusivity, in other words "we're right and you're wrong." Catholicism of course has broken from this, now taking a complementary (as opposed to pluralistic) approach since Vatican II, which was in response to the growth of American catholicism versus traditional catholicism (party due to WWII, but only because of the baby boomers being a massive generation with a lot of influence). All religions change a great deal every year, let alone 2000 years. Saying that the trend is one way for 1900 years and then suddenly changes for the first time ever is a bit myopic. During the second crusade, St. Bernard of Clairvaux and other high ranking members of the Vatican spoke out against anti-semitic  behavior, especially after the death of a large number of jews in Rhineland. The church's official stance was, as of the Vatican Edict of 1150 (734e Introspectamus) - "And thus in all the holy mother church may stand, righteously or not impaired, our brothers in God of Hebrew faith are one in communion of deed though not word, and must be protected by act and deed of all orders of our faith."

So in conclusion, just like with everything else in society, there are always members for and against bigotry. Ever since Mel Gibson put out the Passion, everyone is buying into this idea that Christianity is all about persecuting Judaism on an institutional basis, which is just assuming a lot, and a lot of which is contradicted by official documents of all the sects of Christianity you find. I can't speak to the practice of the individual, but the institution has always frowned on anti-Semitism.

3) I am seriously fiending for a pizza right now.

[Celest]

And yet I didnt make the assertion that Christianity as a whole was anti-semetic. I said a few denominations within the christian faith used the jews role in Jesus's death as an excuse to oppress them and made docternal policy based on that perception that lasted almost a mellinia.


Here is a nice summation of what im refering to, specificly about the Roman Catholic church and their ties to the Papacy:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/italytime.html

This wasnt just in Itally.. there are notable events, such as the blame of the jews for the Black Plague across europe.


*edits to add*

Just so you know, the three biggest groups who did this, two of which with strong ties to the Papicy, were the Roman Catholics, the Normans and the post conversion Saxons.