Just to see what gets made out of this

[Celest]

For those who want to insist that the US was founded as a christian nation:

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

See, the funny thing is people out there say 'well, that doesnt show anything!' dispite the clear fact that it specificly states that the government was not, IN ANY SENSE, founded on the Christian religion.

This post brought on by yet another set of idiotic ramblings by Pat B.    :whip:

[Chucara]

Well.. that was obviously written by communists then.. The word of the lord shall always rule the great nation of America. Against those crazy islamic fundamentalists and their fanatical religion.

[Solwyn]

And monogomous homosexuals. They're the real threat to divine sovereignty

According to Flanders.

[Chucara]

What about bigamous homosexuals? They're fine?  :dizzy:

[Solwyn]

No one respects their home life, they're no threat to the "protected family"

[Brugdor]

For those who want to insist that the US was founded as a christian nation:

Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11:

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

See, the funny thing is people out there say 'well, that doesnt show anything!' dispite the clear fact that it specificly states that the government was not, IN ANY SENSE, founded on the Christian religion.

This post brought on by yet another set of idiotic ramblings by Pat B.    :whip:

I don't know that I ever said the US was a christian nation. I know I said that it was founded by mostly christians which of course influenced the foundation of our government and the way it works.

[Doombot]

I don't know that I ever said the US was a christian nation. I know I said that it was founded by mostly christians which of course influenced the foundation of our government and the way it works.

I thought they were Illuminati members. The secret society that nobody knows about.

[BlueCross]

I don't know that I ever said the US was a christian nation. I know I said that it was founded by mostly christians which of course influenced the foundation of our government and the way it works.

I thought they were Illuminati members. The secret society that nobody knows about.

And Nicolas Cage should know.

*nods*

[The SysMan]

Crap, they're onto us!
Abort!
O.o

[Celest]

While it is true that many of the founding fathers were strongly religious, they also spent 10+ years fighting against a government in which religion was a huge part of the way the government was ran. It's an insult to their intellegence to think that they would make the same mistake that they spent so much and gave so much to fight against.

Not to mention that if you follow alot of the statement and histories of many of the 'key members' of the Constitutional Congress, the vast majority supported secular governments outside of the direct influince of the rule of religion.

That is why if you look at the supream court house... Yes, Moses is up there.. but so are ~20 or so other people, both mythical and real, who all had contribution to human society in the form of establishing laws and evolving laws as a social institution.


Anyways, I wasnt so much saying anyone here has made that statement about the US being a 'christian nation'.. but addressing more that sentament as a whole, especially since people like Pat B love to proclaim the US as some divinely guarded nation under Christ.

[Brugdor]

since people like Pat B love to proclaim the US as some divinely guarded nation under Christ.

My own personal belief is that we once were exactly that. Now as the country has begun to detest and reject that which is right and good and openly embrace that which is evil the slow slide to destruction has begun. It started many years ago but it's fairly obvious to me when I see the rate at which the country is falling apart.

Again, just my personal theory here but I think there's a very good reason that no one can pin down any mention of our country in the book of Revelation. It's my theory that either it won't exist or certainly won't be a major world power by the time Christ returns.

[Thanatos]

Maybe nobody can pin down mention of America in the Book of Revelation because it was written 2000 years ago in opposition to the Roman Empire.  It's not a coincidence that the numerical value of Nero Caesar's name is 666, dude.  John thought Nero was the antichrist.

If you think the Book of Revelation is an accurate portrayal of the end of the way it's all going down at the end of the world, that's pretty hilarious, since the Vatican is now located squarely in the middle of Babylon.

Of course, if you refuse to acknowledge any of the evidence either within Revelation itself or the historical evidence tying the contents of Revelation to the events of that time period, then you can pretty much interpret it any way you want.  Maybe Bush is one of the kings yet to come!  Better yet, maybe Hilary is!  Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!

[Thanatos]

But no, I'm just kidding, you're right. Our country is only 230 years old but it's definitely slowly sliding into destruction now that we're cool with guys assfucking each other.  Pretty soon we'll go the way of Sodom and Gomorrah, eh?  God was down with it when Jefferson was fucking shit out of his slaves and having kids on them outside of marriage because ole TJ made sure to put the big man on our money, but dudes bangin' dudes?  That shit can't stand!

Of course, back in ancient Rome people fucked children all day long and dudes killed other dudes for fun and profit, and Babylon's still standing.  In fact, it's basically the center of Christianity.  Makes you think, huh?  Well, maybe it doesn't make you think, I guess.

Remember kids, everything in the Bible is true, word for word, so you shouldn't get married or have babies, 'cause according to Paul, Jesus was gonna come back before Paul died 1900 years ago, so there was no point!  Of course Paul had to deal with the fact that JC hadn't hit the scene yet in his later letters, but even then he was pretty sure the end of days was right around the corner! 

And also, not only were the Jews were being punished by God when the Romans destroyed their temple in 70 CE, but their punishment was only just beginning!  So, Jews, you're on borrowed time.  Just thought you should know.  Paul said so.  Well, actually it wasn't Paul because most biblical scholars agree that the various anti-Semitic passages in Paul's letters were added later by an anonymous editor

I MEAN STRICT BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION PAUL HATED JEWS


edit: Also, good news for unbaptized babies here!
http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0702216.htm

I'm actually not being sarcastic here.  I think it's cool whenever the Vatican loosens up a bit.

"Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered ... give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision," the document said.

"We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge," it added.

Unfortunately, they're only giving a pass to infants, so if you get to be 4 or 5 and still haven't ever heard of Jesus because you lived in some African shithole then you die of malaria, it's off to limbo or hell with you!  Well, until the next study comes out anyway.  Still, I love it when the big boys in my religion open their mind a little bit and admit they don't have all the answers.  Maybe their example will trickle down a bit!?!?

[Solwyn]

Well to be honest this whole limbo purgatory thing has been an issue with Catholics ever since vatican II. Some people don't agree with it, mainly because of this passage...

All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation." Lumen Gentium

To break that down, before one of the board feminists starts accusing catholicism of using gender specific pronouns to keep the woman down, men here is meant in the Tolkien sense, so sorry this doesn't count for Dwarves, Elves, or Hobbits.

But basically, as of the passing of Vatican II (about fifty years ago now), Catholics are called to believe that all religions are fundamentally extensions of divine will, and that only divine will can interperet truth in that nature.

What does that mean? Basically that Catholics believe when Christ died on the cross for all man's sins, he died for ALL (every) MAN'S (human's) SINS (before or after baptism, real or imagined). Unbaptized babies therefore would go to "purgatory" which is not the same as "limbo." Limbo was a concept that was just kind of pushing an issue under a rug, trying to keep the church from looking heartless while upholding the rules so everyone could follow them. Purgatory is seen as a "cleansing" state that transfers anyone from their earthly incarnation to the divine aspect of their heavenly (soul) form, as "no unclean thing may enter heaven," there is a phase by which all unclean aspects of the soul are cleansed.

So : why bother arguing about the existence of limbo? Because of the fact Catholics belive that salvation is an aspect of faith plus works.

In other words if you are a mass murderer but a priest gives you your last rites before you get a lethal injection, you're absolved in the eyes of man. According to the bible every sin is written into the book of death, and an judgement day you are judged according to your works. But since that's in revelations we just say "alright you're cool with us, we're sending you to God now." So you may still go to hell for killing babies, recanting on your deathbed just means you, like all humans, either felt remorse or fear on your deathbed. Either way good for you.

The catholic church therefore has never officially pronounced that anyone has gone to heaven or hell. We're pretty sure Jesus made it, being Jesus and all. But other than that, it's God's job to decide. We just live the best we can on earth and hope it works out for the best once we're at the gates.

This has been some insight into the ancient arcane faith to which myself and millions of other creepy folks (mostly Irish, Italians, and Hispanics) adhere. Any questions can be addressed to me, or Mr. T.

 :Mr-T:


On the original topic though, I don't think the US was ever divinely guided. I think we like to imagine we were, for if God be for us, who then could be for them. But I'm not sure Jesus would bomb Iraq, or drop the A-bomb on Japan for that matter.

[Brugdor]

Maybe nobody can pin down mention of America in the Book of Revelation because it was written 2000 years ago in opposition to the Roman Empire.  It's not a coincidence that the numerical value of Nero Caesar's name is 666, dude.  John thought Nero was the antichrist.

If you think the Book of Revelation is an accurate portrayal of the end of the way it's all going down at the end of the world, that's pretty hilarious, since the Vatican is now located squarely in the middle of Babylon.

Of course, if you refuse to acknowledge any of the evidence either within Revelation itself or the historical evidence tying the contents of Revelation to the events of that time period, then you can pretty much interpret it any way you want.  Maybe Bush is one of the kings yet to come!  Better yet, maybe Hilary is!  Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!

*sigh* I'll just reply to your two uninformed rants by saying that many people believe that whoever is Pope during the years leading up to the return will be a very evil man. So yes I do know where the Vatican sits and I'm not surprised by it at all.

And no, that isn't an attack on all Catholics or Catholicism.