Just to see what gets made out of this

[Solwyn]

And no, that isn't an attack on all Catholics or Catholicism.

I'd like to note here that I am never offended by anything said about Catholics or Catholicism. I'm sure my priest would argue I should be but for the most part I just laugh.

But if someone says something erroneous in earnesty I'll correct them. Or just make shit up to make it worse.

[Hoopy Frood]

God was down with it when Jefferson was fucking shit out of his slaves and having kids on them outside of marriage because ole TJ made sure to put the big man on our money

Ahhhh, good old TJ. Loved to espouse George Mason and Locke and all those other freethinkers who believed that man should be free to choose his own destiny. However, even on his deathbead the fucker still didn't free his slaves. Don't get my girlfriend started on that. She'll rant for a really long time on that one.

If you think the Book of Revelation is an accurate portrayal of the end of the way it's all going down at the end of the world, that's pretty hilarious, since the Vatican is now located squarely in the middle of Babylon.

When I first read this, I was going to mention how Jack T. Chick (among others) seems to think that the antichrist will show up in the guise of the pope. And apparently Brug believes this idea to have some merit.

[Night Owl]

While it is true that many of the founding fathers were strongly religious,

Actually, I'm pretty sure that most weren't very religious. Very little mention of church / god / etc in any of their personal writings (not enough to make anyone think they were overly religious at all.) Of course, they lived at a time when religion was much more a fabric of day to day life, so they had that to contend with. The formality of much of the writing almost needs to mention divine this or god that.

But from what I can gather, I like to think most of them privately were very skeptical in regards to religion.

[Brugdor]

When I first read this, I was going to mention how Jack T. Chick (among others) seems to think that the antichrist will show up in the guise of the pope. And apparently Brug believes this idea to have some merit.

Nope. Not what I said at all actually.

[Celest]

Well, Im refering more to the context of the time(as you mentioned) in which poiusness was a very important part of the daily lives of the vast majority of people. Of course, this was also a time in which religion wasnt becoming more and more secularized, thus the devout didnt feel the need to go out and express their piousness in every way imaginable(different times, different contexts).


As for Revalations.. correct me if Im wrong, but hasnt the events depicted there been 'imminent' since Paul?

Also, on the topic of jews... Christians,(especially roman catholics), used the jew's role in the death of Jesus to persecute them for a millenia.. If not for a certain short mastached man, that wouldnt have changed either.

[Brugdor]

As for Revalations.. correct me if Im wrong, but hasnt the events depicted there been 'imminent' since Paul?

Also, on the topic of jews... Christians,(especially roman catholics), used the jew's role in the death of Jesus to persecute them for a millenia.. If not for a certain short mastached man, that wouldnt have changed either.

Yes Revelation was written in such a way that it can be applied to whatever time period one is currently in. Presumably this is so God can keep everyone in constant readiness for the return of Christ.

As far as the Jews go, yes they were wrongly persecuted in the past by various christian groups. How that pertains to our current discussion I have no idea. I suppose I could start randomly inserting references to the millions and millions of people killed in the name of atheism in various communist regimes into all our debates but I don't really see the point of doing either.

[Solwyn]

Also, on the topic of jews... Christians,(especially roman catholics), used the jew's role in the death of Jesus to persecute them for a millenia.. If not for a certain short mastached man, that wouldnt have changed either.

I think you mean "some Christians (and most notably a small group of Roman Catholics)." Catholicism teaches that Jesus suffered under Pontius Pilate (say it every week in mass), and that the Jews on the whole were not responsible for Christ's crucifixion, only a small sect of them who did it because he threatened their power. And you can bring up the whole Benedict XV and Pius XII being neutral during WWII, but that makes them no more anti-semitic than Switzerland. But Pius was devoutly anti-communist, and threatened to excommunicate any Catholic who supported communist political leaders (which is beyond the bounds of Papal decree as of Vatican II btw). I'll admit the dude had a screw loose, but if you're going to accuse him of anything accuse him of anti-communist ideals that would make McCarthy look like the president of the Lenin fan club.

Aside from that, Catholicism was the target of several hate organizations over the past millenia, including Hitler. Hitler HATED catholicism, and mainly because of how similar it was to Judaism in unity of faith (directly opposed to fascist ideals). If you follow the pope you can't be a complete German national zombie soldier.

Also, if we're talking about the faith of our founding fathers, any of the study I've done shows them all to be highly gnostic in nature, in that they were very spiritual in the transcendental way that men of their time were, but that their ties to religion were more for show than practice (except for Washington who was at least devout in everything we can find on his thoughts on religion so if nothing else he faked it really well).

[Celest]

Actually, Im not refering to the pope during WWII but those since ~1000 AD which used the roles that the jewish leadership played in Jesus's death as an excuse to stick it to the jews.. a policy that wasnt changed until after the concentration camps were found in WWII.. You know, the thing that caused a fundamental shift in christian doctern as a whole in the second half of the 20th century.

I was just commenting on the jews, though, since they were brought up earlier in the post.

Also, silly asertion on communism and Atheism. Communism didnt enforce Atheism. The only reason that religion was suppressed was to suppress congregations. It wasnt about religion(hell, Russian Orthodoxy has been one of the major religion throughout the former USSR countries for ages, long before and will be long after Communism). The whole point of this suppression was so that there couldnt be a 'rival power' to that of the state.. also to eleminate group gatherings so the people couldnt 'conspire against the state'. Even in the vaunted China, Religion isnt suppressed. Only congregations such as churches are due for the reasons I stated.

The biggest reason why it was presented as some grand Atheist state was due to McCarthism. It was yet another way to rile up the natives against the 'great evil of Communism' by saying they are godless heathens.

[Brugdor]

Actually, Im not refering to the pope during WWII but those since ~1000 AD which used the roles that the jewish leadership played in Jesus's death as an excuse to stick it to the jews.. a policy that wasnt changed until after the concentration camps were found in WWII.. You know, the thing that caused a fundamental shift in christian doctern as a whole in the second half of the 20th century.

I was just commenting on the jews, though, since they were brought up earlier in the post.

Also, silly asertion on communism and Atheism. Communism didnt enforce Atheism. The only reason that religion was suppressed was to suppress congregations. It wasnt about religion(hell, Russian Orthodoxy has been one of the major religion throughout the former USSR countries for ages, long before and will be long after Communism). The whole point of this suppression was so that there couldnt be a 'rival power' to that of the state.. also to eleminate group gatherings so the people couldnt 'conspire against the state'. Even in the vaunted China, Religion isnt suppressed. Only congregations such as churches are due for the reasons I stated.

The biggest reason why it was presented as some grand Atheist state was due to McCarthism. It was yet another way to rile up the natives against the 'great evil of Communism' by saying they are godless heathens.

Communism suppresses religion for the reasons you gave. They don't want the people to have an allegiance to anything greater than the state. It is forced atheism.

Oh and religion isn't suppressed in China? Heh, there are tons of people in China's prisons that would beg to differ with that statement. For instance, Christians in China have two choices. Either they can attend a state run church where what is taught is limited by what the state says is ok or they can attend illegal small home-based church groups and risk getting imprisoned if they are caught.

[Celest]

Fact of the matter is they can practice religion. Not to the extent they would like to but that is a far cry from forced atheism. Until China actively eleminates religion across the board, not just saying 'you have to worship in our church', then they arnt trying to force atheism on anyone. That doesnt make what they are doing right but then that doesnt make the idiotcy of claming that Communism is an atheistic entity hold any more water.


Actually, suppression is the wrong word to use in this instance. Suppression means to put a stop to something, to abolish it, to eleminate it, which isnt what is happening. It could be arguing semantics but I have yet to see anything from communist states that shows they are actively trying to eleminate religion as a whole as opposed to limiting their ability to challange the state as the 'ultimate' authority to the people.

Limiting it is a better word since even at the height of Stalin and Lenin, 1/3 of the USSR population openly admitted and practiced their religion(hell, the USSR even tried to establish a 'Zion' for Jews, which isnt an act of an atheistic state).


There is a big difference between a state saying 'Well, we will allow you to practice religion, but only if you do so in this way' and a state saying 'There is no god, if you worship a god you are breaking the law of the state'. Ultimately, the practice of limiting religion under communist states isnt done with any ideal of Atheism in mind. It's all about controling where the power is.

[Brugdor]

Fact of the matter is they can practice religion. Not to the extent they would like to but that is a far cry from forced atheism. Until China actively eleminates religion across the board, not just saying 'you have to worship in our church', then they arnt trying to force atheism on anyone. That doesnt make what they are doing right but then that doesnt make the idiotcy of claming that Communism is an atheistic entity hold any more water.


Actually, suppression is the wrong word to use in this instance. Suppression means to put a stop to something, to abolish it, to eleminate it, which isnt what is happening. It could be arguing semantics but I have yet to see anything from communist states that shows they are actively trying to eleminate religion as a whole as opposed to limiting their ability to challange the state as the 'ultimate' authority to the people.

Limiting it is a better word since even at the height of Stalin and Lenin, 1/3 of the USSR population openly admitted and practiced their religion(hell, the USSR even tried to establish a 'Zion' for Jews, which isnt an act of an atheistic state).


There is a big difference between a state saying 'Well, we will allow you to practice religion, but only if you do so in this way' and a state saying 'There is no god, if you worship a god you are breaking the law of the state'. Ultimately, the practice of limiting religion under communist states isnt done with any ideal of Atheism in mind. It's all about controling where the power is.

They can't practice true Christianity in China's state run churches because the core of the message is gutted. Like I said, Communist countries don't want the people to care about anything more than they care about the state.

Yes, the home-based churches are being suppressed in China.

BTW, I actually know someone who did some mission work in China. They had to go secretly and not let the Chinese government know what they were actually doing there.

[Celest]

Which, again, is different from the state saying 'there is no god'. Like I said, it's not right what they are doing but what they are doing isnt forcing atheism.

[Brugdor]

Which, again, is different from the state saying 'there is no god'. Like I said, it's not right what they are doing but what they are doing isnt forcing atheism.

Well no it's enforcing the atheistic beliefs of the leaders on the people.

[Celest]

Which is so clearly demostrated by the USSR's 'Zion', the fact that it isnt 'illegal' to have a religion and the fact that there has been no attempt to outright abolish religion in communist states, right?


Overal, Communism is Secular. Yes, there have been a good bit of Athiests in the higher echalons of Communist states, but as a whole, outside of wanting to limit the people's ability to gather in uncontrolled enviroments, they dont really give a damn about if someone is a christian, muslem, jew or any number of religions out there.


If communism was truely an 'atheistic' state who forced atheism... it wouldnt be illegal to go to a non state sponsered church(as there wouldnt even be a state sponsered church), it would be flat out illegal to simply beleive that there are deities.

[Brugdor]

Which is so clearly demostrated by the USSR's 'Zion', the fact that it isnt 'illegal' to have a religion and the fact that there has been no attempt to outright abolish religion in communist states, right?


Overal, Communism is Secular. Yes, there have been a good bit of Athiests in the higher echalons of Communist states, but as a whole, outside of wanting to limit the people's ability to gather in uncontrolled enviroments, they dont really give a damn about if someone is a christian, muslem, jew or any number of religions out there.


If communism was truely an 'atheistic' state who forced atheism... it wouldnt be illegal to go to a non state sponsered church(as there wouldnt even be a state sponsered church), it would be flat out illegal to simply beleive that there are deities.

If you are controlling what is taught in the churches so the people will continue to value the state even over their own faiths then you are not allowing any true freedom of religion or religious thought. So yes, the leaders of the communist states were suppressing religious freedom in order to keep control over the people.

It's like telling someone they are free to drive a car but that they have to use car owned by the government that has a tracking system and can only be used to go to certain acceptable locations.