Author Topic: "Official" language  (Read 12458 times)

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Solwyn

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"Official" language
« on: October 06, 2008, 09:36:05 AM »
A town near where I live, Lewisville TX, is voting on whether to make English the "official" language of the city.

http://www.planostar.com/articles/2008/10/06/lewisville_leader/news/20.txt

I'm posting this here but I figured I'd spark up a conversation. Do you think America (or regions within America) should establish "official" languages?

My personal opinion is that there should be a language requirement for citizenship, in order to satisfy that all members of a nation are fully aware of the social contract to which they belong.

Most people are calling this racist, but as most road signs are only provided in English here, and other legally binding information is only presented in one language, proficiency in that language should be required (or so I believe). I'm not saying that we shouldn't additionally provide these documents in the person's native language upon request, but I think it's racist to only provide these special provisions for some.

My family came here from Germany and France, and my grandparents on both sides learned English as soon as possible in order to succeed in this nation. I don't think it's fair for certain cultures (in this instance Spanish-speaking ones) to move to this country and expect the country to do all of the changing/work in order to make them feel welcome. I don't think any other cultural emigrant group in this nation has ever expected as much preferential treatment in regards to language. If you need proof, find me one trash can that says "Trash/Abfall" in the states and I will buy your drinks all night, so you can puke in the "basura" basket.

What are your opinions?
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Nighthavok

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 02:15:14 PM »
I'm so glad someone started this up.

Recently, I came into a career where I have to interact with customers in their homes and a lot of them speak little to no English.  So I took it upon myself to take and learn Spanish on my own.  Total immersion.  And when I told people that I was learning Spanish, about 80 to 90% of people I told (primarily middle class to higher class whites and blacks) had this attitude.

"Why do you want to learn Spanish?  Maybe they should learn English!"

Because I want to expand my own horizons.  Because I want to help people.

Since when is learning Spanish suddenly so dirty?  Why is there this underlying stigma against Spanish speaking people?  It's not like every person that speaks Spanish is, for the lack of a more racist description, a border jumping murderer.

But to address your question, I agree that the United States should adopt an official language for overall comprehension and understanding.  But because retail stores, malls, and grocery stores have bilingual signs, perhaps the U.S. should think about making the official language English and Spanish.

Solwyn

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 05:21:21 PM »
I can totally see your point, and I've actually learned a good bit of Spanish in the last few years in order to be more productive and socially immersed down here in Texas. But my point is that there is a cultural issue that I'm seeing lately, in which certain cultures refuse to adapt to the way of life in the place where they have moved.

I'm not talking about stereotypes, and I'm not trying to be racist, I'm saying that it's a slippery slope. If you provide all traffic signs in English and Spanish, why not provide French because we also border Canada? Why not provide Russian because Alaska shares a "narrow maritime border" with Russia (and when Putin rears his head and demands that we surrender our Vodka, we need to know how to say "nyet")?

Why is it okay to say yes to Spanish but not any other language? My personal view is that no other language group has been as insistent, and it could be that "Hispanic" is a language group and not really a unified culture otherwise. And in this I realize that it's not the same as other language groups, but what makes our nation diverse is that we have two aspects of ourselves: our personal culture and identity and our identity as a nation. Most other cultures speak whatever language they want in the home, and worship whatever God(s) they wish to (or not), but when they go out into the world and work jobs and pay taxes, they do it in the same way.

Notice in this case I'm not pointing out the numbers of people who have emigrated illegally or the crime rate statistics for ethnic and language groups, I think that's all incidental and really not the point. I have no problem learning Spanish, if I lived in Europe I would make it a point to know more than my nation's language so I could communicate with people around me, but (correct me if I'm wrong) most European nations have a national language that you are expected to learn if you are to become a citizen of that nation.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2008, 10:51:12 PM by Solwyn »
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BlueCross

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 10:50:16 PM »
Je hablas Deutsch.

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Starseeker

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 11:22:37 PM »
Don't you start.

You don't know how much more money it is costing Canadian businesses to have to print everything in 2 languages.

I used to work immigration, so I had first hand experience in such things.   Vancouver is extremely metropolitan in the sense that we get about 100 languages under the roof.  The ESL thing is kind of a catch-22.  If there is a large community of the same language speakers in the area for the immigrant, his/her ESL learning will be retarded by a least a few years.  But if he/she has to struggle on their own, they pick it up really fast.  Language is a strange thing.  A lot of our brain space was evolved to incorporate it.  But it takes so much to learn and so little time to learn it.  You have only 14 years to properly learn a language.  When you get past 14 years old, the language processing center in your brain will no longer treat the new language the same way it treats your mother language.  This is how accent develops because your brain is using the old language to translate the new one.

But then again, some of the stuff I buy in HK prints instructions and prices in 8-10 languages. 

Official or non official, visa, master and american express speaks all languages.   ;D

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Solwyn

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2008, 04:54:34 PM »
So is your point that we should learn as many languages before the age of 14 as possible or just force everyone to speak a language that's a combination of all known languages?

Like Esperanto.

Worst... language... ever.
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Nighthavok

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2008, 03:54:54 AM »
William Shatner disagrees with you strongly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F77k6SQX7iQ

Starseeker

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2008, 02:53:01 AM »
Well, languages are incredibly geographical.  Even though all the Americans speak the same "English", you wouldn't call what a New Yorker says is exactly the same as what a Alabamian says, right?  And if you tried to mention your idea of distilling all languages into one giant one to any decent linguist, you'll probably be shot in the head at least 3 times.  Lingualnomics which rhythms genomics, will probably take a bigger database and a faster computer than mapping the simple 4 base pairs and its combinations. 

If a child is exposed to a multilingual environment at a young age, he/she has a higher chance of recruiting more neuron clusters to the speech "area" required to process such things.  But that doesn't mean it's impossible, during my 5 years of immigration practise, I have been proven wrong a lot of times by new immigrants who seem to struggle with ESL.  Language is like many things in life, which is a skill that goes hand in hand with habits.  Any speech or writing quirks that you have is probably the result of things that happened during your development phase that get ingrained with emotional weight without you realizing it.

As for the "official language" business, that has to do with politics, not linguistics.  Canada's desire to require 2 "official languages" makes a lot of things quite complicated.  It's like a country with a cultural split personality.  If you are/speak French, you can probably stay in Quebec' or PEI all your life and never have to learn English at all.  People in the West Coast, like us, has enough to deal with as it is, i.e. Chinese, Japanese, or Korean, all the while wondering why we are legally required to print things in French when most of the people/consumers of our products don't speak it.  French student get more funding for their "special" schools(French immersion) while a lot of "regular" schools struggle with provincial funding with the Federal government looking on to protect their resource industry and wondering why it's not 1908. 

Anyway, ranting aside, if there is enough demand for it, things will eventually happen.  I actually considered learning Spanish in high school simply because of usage.  English, Chinese and Spanish are probably 3 of the most spoken languages around according my knowledge back then.  I also wanted to learn Japanese, and Italian, but that was for personal interest, not because of the fact that a lot of people speak it.   

It also goes back to my original idea that the bigger the minority community is in the local area, the more likely of the fact that there would be a lot of "home" language in the area.  Rational Segregation argument aside, that's how it is. 

As for the fitting in/integration argument, that's a difficult topic in the immigration circle with the usual debate ending up in name calling, racial slurs, and huge flame wars.  For my view, it takes 3 generations to be fully integrated into a new culture/country.  If you don't believe that, go live/work in a totally different culture/country compared to yours for long periods of time and come back and talk to me.  China, for example.   ;D

I have taught ESL for more than 10 years now, and I have seen more immigrants than probably stars in the sky.  The difficulty, the fear, the regret, the xenophobia, the let down, the loneliness and ultimately, the desire to fit it but not being able to are the hurdles most immigrants have to go through to start a new beginning and a claw out a new life for themselves.  Nobody really wants to be isolated from the society at large.  I have had that feeling before, and it's like you are a movie camera(since you don't really exist) watching and filming life passes you by while have absolutely nothing to do with you(since you can't seem to effect/affect it in any way, shape or form).  Most people want to fit in, in some shape or form, so if we make it easier, maybe we wouldn't need the special signs. 

P.S: To my knowledge, there are no Chinese road signs in Vancouver(I can't recall whether China Town had them or not, but if it did, it's probably for tourism reasons), despite the fact that they are the largest minority groups around here.  It's probably too expensive to print signs in non-Latin anyway.  Not to mention the fact that if anyone tried to print any simplified Chinese road signs outside of China will have to meet the Starseeker's squads of chainsaw wielding Battle Sisters that burns all attempts at a fake language outside its own country. 
Starseeker, signing off.

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Celest

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2008, 04:50:25 AM »
As a nation of immigrants, we souldnt have an 'official' language.

However, if states want to vote on having one.. or towns or whatever.. then I have no problem with that.

Solwyn

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2008, 05:17:39 AM »
Well, languages are incredibly geographical.  Even though all the Americans speak the same "English", you wouldn't call what a New Yorker says is exactly the same as what a Alabamian says, right? 
If we're talking about spoken language, in most cases they're not even considered different dialects (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_English).  If we're talking about written language, the standards of both are identical (both conform to the laws of Standard American English, which is the proposed "official" language). My point in this is that no matter what your culture group or ethnicity, you have to meet certain requirements to integrate into a culture, as you pointed out later in your post.... but here in the states it's different.

I personally have never left this country for the purpose of a visit or with the intent of a long-term relocation, so I can't really speak from experience when it comes to the integration factor. This country is different from a lot of others, and maybe that's part of the point I'm making. "Alabamians" don't fight to get their version of English (ain't, y'all, etc) classified as standard non-slang in the Oxford English Dictionary, they just expect that when they write an official document or letter, they need to conform to the standards of SAE, and in most cases APA and other publication standards.

I personally can't say whether it'd be good or bad to have official language guidelines. Right now everything has to be printed in Standard American English (emergency numbers and legal warnings on the front windows of all stores, etc) but if someone feels discriminated against for not having these things printed in English, they have a laundry list of precedents that sympathetic judges have agreed with, even though there is not a single law drafted to supply this stuff in multiple languages (only in the case of official documents and so forth).

What I guess I'm saying is that there is no 100% set standard right now. We don't have an official language, and we dont' reinforce providing things in every language. IF these laws continue to be passed we'll finally have actual legal stance one way or the other, and I'm interested to see which is gonna happen.

And my point about making one all-encompassing language was a joke, and yet another excuse to make fun of Esperanto.
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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2008, 06:05:49 AM »
I don't see a downside to expecting people who live here as permanent residents to be able to both speak and write English. I don't know that it's necessary but I don't see anything wrong with it.

Just as I think it's the right of anyone who owns a business in the US to decide if they want to serve people who don't speak English, I also believe it's the right of the costumer to take their business elsewhere if they don't want to deal with a company that hires people that can't speak English.
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Nighthavok

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 06:59:03 AM »
I don't see a downside to expecting people who live here as permanent residents to be able to both speak and write English. I don't know that it's necessary but I don't see anything wrong with it.

Just as I think it's the right of anyone who owns a business in the US to decide if they want to serve people who don't speak English, I also believe it's the right of the costumer to take their business elsewhere if they don't want to deal with a company that hires people that can't speak English.

McDonald's would like a word with you.

Celest

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 07:19:03 AM »
Overall I think it speaks to the sad state in this country when you have people across the world who learn atleast 3 languages and yet we cant be bothered to learn more then one.

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 11:26:09 AM »
McDonald's would like a word with you.

You do anything other than one-liners?  :inquisitive:
LISTER: Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast.  In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. NO TOAST.
TOASTER: How 'bout a muffin?
LISTER: OR muffins!  OR muffins!  We don't LIKE muffins 'round here!  We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes and no hot-cross buns and DEFINITELY no smegging flapjacks!
TOASTER: Aah, so you're a waffle man!

Silver Dragon

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Re: "Official" language
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 11:27:22 AM »
Overall I think it speaks to the sad state in this country when you have people across the world who learn atleast 3 languages and yet we cant be bothered to learn more then one.
Actually, it speaks to the sad state of the country when people shirk personal responsibility while they kowtow the government into catering to their every whim.

Also, I find it ironic that you complain how people in this country can't be bothered to learn more than one language when you seemingly can't be bothered to learn how to spell in the one language I see you use.

Sorry, was that too harsh and/or cynical?

[/House]
LISTER: Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast.  In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. NO TOAST.
TOASTER: How 'bout a muffin?
LISTER: OR muffins!  OR muffins!  We don't LIKE muffins 'round here!  We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes and no hot-cross buns and DEFINITELY no smegging flapjacks!
TOASTER: Aah, so you're a waffle man!