Author Topic: "a remarkable lack of urgency"  (Read 4395 times)

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BlueCross

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"a remarkable lack of urgency"
« on: October 25, 2007, 08:53:08 PM »
I didn't even think this should be in the debate forum but I suspect that by itself is debatable.

A UN report on the Global Environment Outlook: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7050788.stm

I suppose I'm hugely prejudiced on this; I don't for a minute believe it is a matter of opinion. I think it is a cold hard fact that we are pissing away our world and our resources.

And I'm not posting this here just to kick butt or raise tempers.  In fact, I kind of wonder why I am posting it here.  Perhaps if I can 'convert' even one person, that would be a 'win', no matter how small.

I'm particularly concerned about fish populations.  Overfishing, warming and pollution have devastated many fish runs.  I grew up at the mouth of the Columbia river.  Some of the pictures from the 20's and 30's are awesome.  The amount of fish available then was astounding.  Now the salmon season is sometimes counted in days or even hours.

I supsect there is going to be a huge trigger effect some day, where the collapse of a certain specie or species leads to a huge downward spiral of the entire ocean eco-system.

Yeh... maybe 'alarmist!' or 'over-reacting', but I suspect not.  This stuff seems to be getting pretty serious to me.
"for the record, I'm not some kind of psychotic provincialist." - Than (ed: Cit. required)
"I lost my game of NT: Garry's fault. Global warming: Garry's fault. End-of-the-Universe: Garry's fault. See it always fits. Anyway, what is Garry up to? No good I bet." - Laszlo
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Doombot

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2007, 03:27:47 AM »
Actually warming is a good thing.

The White House says so. Warming helps the people who might die from the cold.

Perino: ‘There Are Public Health Benefits To Climate Change’ For People Who Die From ‘Cold’
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Brugdor

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2007, 03:44:30 AM »
I think I'm the only person that's really ever fought you over environmental issues BC and I've stated in the past that I think we need to be more careful about pollution and such. The only issue I really clash with you on is the idea of Global Warming being caused by man. I'm all for conservation and reduction of pollution if it's done carefully.

So I don't know that posting this in debate did you any good either.   :)

Oh and I should add that I've seen people suggesting that a warmer climate would actually help in many ways. I was even watching a show on Vikings that I had recorded that talked about them being on Greenland when the earth was much warmer around 1000 years ago. I think the only thing we need to worry about is becoming more flexible to the changes a warmer climate will bring. The best farm land might not be where our farms are atm after warming gets to a certain point. Or perhaps the schedule for cultivating that land might need to be shifted to some degree.  Some cities *cough* New Orleans *cough* weren't built with much forethought in mind. We might have to adjust if the warming period lasts long enough to raise the sea level significantly. Or some cities *cough* Atlanta *cough* might have to adjust knowing that there isn't enough water to support the population. So on and so forth.

Anyway, I've treaded dangerously close to starting an actual debate so I'll go now.  :P
« Last Edit: October 26, 2007, 03:53:22 AM by Brugdor »
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Sweetpea

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2007, 11:32:04 AM »
i agree with you BC, we do have to be careful.

the world's ecosystems is such a delicate balance that yes, although the earth does naturally go through phases of getting warmer and colder, it has systems in place to deal with it.  but when man adds more pollutants etc to the mix than the systems can handle, that's when they can crash.

we also need to be more careful about where we tread too and stop encroaching on land that animals need.  and anyways, they were there first!!

the BBC's been reporting on elephants in India getting caught up in electrical wires that were hanging over the paths they've been taking for the last however many years.  so not only are they dying cause they're being electricuted but apparently, the local farmers feel the elephants have been moving too close to 'their' land and have shooting them too.  there's been a severe dip in numbers over the last few years.

and the yangtze river dolphin is extinct now too cause of run ins with barges, boats, pollution of the river and loss of food sources.
there were talks of plans to get some animals into captivity to breed but due to red tape, arguments between the different groups and basically dragging their heels, when they went to look for some animals, they found there weren't any left to find.

how many species have to die before the situation becomes urgent? i agree with BC, there is a distinct feeling of lack of urgency with many of today's issues that need to be addressed, well, now really. 
Thomas Jefferson: Question with boldness even the existance of a god; because if there be one,  he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.

Solwyn

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2007, 04:31:29 PM »
I should have read this before replying in the other forum. So I guess I'll re-state.

I think global climate is changing. I don't know if we're causing it, or if we can do anything to stop it, but I know we need to research it and figure out what's going on.

I completely agree that we waste resources and impact our environment in a huge way, and we absolutely need to start thinking about how to change that.
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BlueCross

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2007, 06:46:12 PM »
I should have read this before replying in the other forum. So I guess I'll re-state.

I think global climate is changing. I don't know if we're causing it, or if we can do anything to stop it, but I know we need to research it and figure out what's going on.

I completely agree that we waste resources and impact our environment in a huge way, and we absolutely need to start thinking about how to change that.

My major disagreement with you here is that I would say instead: "we absolutely need to start changing that."

This is issue has been way 'over thought'.  We're going to end up burying ourselves; our tombstones will say "Well, at least we thought about it!"

"for the record, I'm not some kind of psychotic provincialist." - Than (ed: Cit. required)
"I lost my game of NT: Garry's fault. Global warming: Garry's fault. End-of-the-Universe: Garry's fault. See it always fits. Anyway, what is Garry up to? No good I bet." - Laszlo
"As for your French, it's probably better than the average English-speaking Frenchman's Finnish! (Or something.)" - wa
"I'm back at Thunderfalls now and every minute thinking of poking a bandit in the eye with a fishhook." - Preyveil
"and yet still nothing has made it to BC's signature!"-KMD

Wraith

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2007, 10:18:04 PM »
I should have read this before replying in the other forum. So I guess I'll re-state.
Ditto.  Someone should probably merge these.  In the meantime, see my reply in the other thread.

My major disagreement with you here is that I would say instead: "we absolutely need to start changing that."

This is issue has been way 'over thought'.  We're going to end up burying ourselves; our tombstones will say "Well, at least we thought about it!"
Agreed.  I was actually listening to public radio recently, and they were pushing a book with very similar connotations (It's time to act, the time for thinking about it is long past).  I'm working on getting the name of the thing, since it sounded like at the very least, it'd be a very interesting read.  I'll pass it along if I find it.

-Wraith

Solwyn

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Re: "a remarkable lack of urgency"
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2007, 06:41:38 PM »
My major disagreement with you here is that I would say instead: "we absolutely need to start changing that."

This is issue has been way 'over thought'.  We're going to end up burying ourselves; our tombstones will say "Well, at least we thought about it!"



Since you answered here I'll reply here.

I don't disagree with you about the fact that we need to take action, but the question is what action? Is the Gore camp right and the carbon dioxide emissions are responsible? Are our previous beliefs that only CFCs caused ozone depletion the basis of the issue? I agree that we need to take action on the following things:
*use less petroleum
*waste less of everything, including renewable and nonrenewable resources
*be more responsible with the way we deal with all of the leftovers of our waste
 
I think those actions should be taken. However, we don't know for sure how to reverse whatever caused global warming, so I think we should spend a lot of money trying to determine what the true cause is, or else we stand a chance of making it worse with blind experimentation (for example throwing pulverized tires into a hurricane, which we have reason to believe would result in a significant fallout in the ecosystems involved, especially if it's thin enough to be inhaled by animals including humans).

On top of that I think both sides of the argument are bending the facts to their side. Not to divide it into liberals and conservatives (because I think it's more complicated than that), but the "Global Warmists" say that the increase in hurricanes and tropical storms are evidence of global climate shift. At the same time, the people in charge of determining weather policy (naming storms etc) are giving a name to every subtropical storm and classifying what was never considered a hurricane as a hurricane, massively skewing the figures to their side. The "Everything is Okay" camp claims that the weather is part of a natural shift (axis tilt, revolution change, etc) even though all evidence shows that the rate at which this change is occuring would be impossible for something that normally takes place over a few hundred years in the life of a planet.

So I honestly think we're pointing too many fingers at each other. We all want to fix the problem now but absolutely no one understands what's happening or why. It's like trying to pull a kid out of a well with a crane before making sure they don't have a rock stuck on their leg. Sure you'll get them out but they'll probably be missing a leg. If you do nothing they'll starve to death. So yeah we can't just sit around and wait for the planet to die, but I don't consider research a waste of time or money.

I'm not saying we should sit around and twiddle our thumbs in the meantime, we need to make more aggressive laws and regulations on the big producers of waste and possible warming issues (contrary to popular belief the US isn't the worst, we're just the noisiest about it), but a lot of the measures to reverse global warming include ways to counteract the main causes of them, not just reduce them, because we have no way of knowing if our environment even includes a mechanism to reverse changes to nonbiological climate factors, and we have a really good chance of doing something irreversible (if we're not already).

I mean that's just my opinion, it seems like the US is adopting a sit in a cave with fingers in the ears, but I'm doing my best to help, we're using less energy, disposing of our waste properly and recycling, but at the same time I'm not picketing anyone because first off I'm not sure who to picket, and second I'm not sure it'd do anything.
"Honor is the combination of idealism and the practical application of
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