Religion - Good or Bad?

[Chucara]

Take your pick in the poll, and state your opinions below:

I'll state my somewhat controversial viewpoint here:

I am, at best, an agnostic. I think all religious books are written by men, and as such, tell more about the society in which they were written than they do of the deity they portray, if such an entity exists.

I think religion is a major contributor to conflict around the World. - Protestant/Catholic in Northern Ireland, Muslim/Anything else in the Middle East, Christian/Anything else during the Crusades, Something/Something else a million times throughout history.

Now, I'm not saying that religion is responsible for all war, humans manage that on their own - but it is just another thing we can disagree on and fight wars over. I think the prime contributor is territorial disputes/power.

Aside wars, many other bad things has happened in the name of religion: The Inquisition and various other witch hunts, Tom Cruise becoming a complete idiot and various acts of terrorism.

Humans seem to have a almost tribal like trend to band together against "the enemy", but question is:

If we had no religion (or to some extent, everyone had the same), would there be less terrorism/war/Tom Cruises?

My view is Yes. Most recently, religion is being using as a distraction by dictators to turn the peoples anger towards external enemies rather than the problem that occur in their own country.

Please note that all religion should be counted the same. IMO the only difference between Christianity and Islam is 400 years of technological and sociological progress.

[Brugdor]

Take your pick in the poll, and state your opinions below:

I'll state my somewhat controversial viewpoint here:

I am, at best, an agnostic. I think all religious books are written by men, and as such, tell more about the society in which they were written than they do of the deity they portray, if such an entity exists.

I think religion is a major contributor to conflict around the World. - Protestant/Catholic in Northern Ireland, Muslim/Anything else in the Middle East, Christian/Anything else during the Crusades, Something/Something else a million times throughout history.

Now, I'm not saying that religion is responsible for all war, humans manage that on their own - but it is just another thing we can disagree on and fight wars over. I think the prime contributor is territorial disputes/power.

Aside wars, many other bad things has happened in the name of religion: The Inquisition and various other witch hunts, Tom Cruise becoming a complete idiot and various acts of terrorism.

Humans seem to have a almost tribal like trend to band together against "the enemy", but question is:

If we had no religion (or to some extent, everyone had the same), would there be less terrorism/war/Tom Cruises?

My view is Yes. Most recently, religion is being using as a distraction by dictators to turn the peoples anger towards external enemies rather than the problem that occur in their own country.

Please note that all religion should be counted the same. IMO the only difference between Christianity and Islam is 400 years of technological and sociological progress.

First off, there's a difference between faith and religion. Faith being the belief in a God we can't see and religion being the man made traditions based on faith. I make that distinction because I think the world would indeed be better off without religion. However I would never say it would be better off without faith. Personally I think Jesus shakes his head sadly at many christian traditions. For instance, at one church I went to there were rules about employee dress that would have turned Jesus away at the door if He showed up wearing sandals.

A friend of mine made a bumper sticker that says, "Jesus hates religion". While that might be a little strong, I think it's more right than wrong.

[Chucara]

First off, there's a difference between faith and religion. Faith being the belief in a God we can't see and religion being the man made traditions based on faith. I make that distinction because I think the world would indeed be better off without religion. However I would never say it would be better off without faith. Personally I think Jesus shakes his head sadly at many christian traditions. For instance, at one church I went to there were rules about employee dress that would have turned Jesus away at the door if He showed up wearing sandals.

A friend of mine made a bumper sticker that says, "Jesus hates religion". While that might be a little strong, I think it's more right than wrong.

Excellent point, and a very good description of what I feel is the problem with many modern religion. I am surprised that you have this opinion however. It seems to be in conflict with (as far as I understood, anyway) your literal reading of the Bible. I you think that the rules of some churches are a problem because they are made by humans, yet you consider the literal wording of the Bible to be true. In my eyes, the Bible is also a product of humans. Even if the original text was directly written from the word of God, it has been the subject to many reprints and edits during the ages.

[Brugdor]

First off, there's a difference between faith and religion. Faith being the belief in a God we can't see and religion being the man made traditions based on faith. I make that distinction because I think the world would indeed be better off without religion. However I would never say it would be better off without faith. Personally I think Jesus shakes his head sadly at many christian traditions. For instance, at one church I went to there were rules about employee dress that would have turned Jesus away at the door if He showed up wearing sandals.

A friend of mine made a bumper sticker that says, "Jesus hates religion". While that might be a little strong, I think it's more right than wrong.

Excellent point, and a very good description of what I feel is the problem with many modern religion. I am surprised that you have this opinion however. It seems to be in conflict with (as far as I understood, anyway) your literal reading of the Bible. I you think that the rules of some churches are a problem because they are made by humans, yet you consider the literal wording of the Bible to be true. In my eyes, the Bible is also a product of humans. Even if the original text was directly written from the word of God, it has been the subject to many reprints and edits during the ages.

The translations have been shown to be completely accurate every time older copies are found (Dead Sea Scrolls, etc).

My literal interpretation of the Bible is due to my belief that it was written by God through men which is basically impossible for a non-believer to understand.

[Solwyn]

I think religion is important, but no more than language or art or other expressions of culture/faith.

And not to be directly argumentative, but I think the assertion that the bible has remained completely accurate over thousands of years of translation is just ignorant. The point of this forum isn't to get into that discussion, so we can move that to another topic, but the translations of the bible that exist TODAY contradict each other, and I don't see how it's possible that they all came from the dead sea scrolls if they don't say the same thing.

Anyway, I think Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity sometimes, mainly in regards to how many daily rules are laid out in scriptural law (times per day to pray, dietary restrictions, etc). Christianity is (to most christians) kind of Judaism 2.0, in that Christians (except for some groups) trace their identity back to Jews who accept Christ as the Moshiach (Messiah), so they see that all the daily rules are not divinely interpereted but rather expressions of faith.

To answer the question, I think that religion is good, as long as it's given a proper place in the world as cultural expression. I think the western ideal of social contract that essentially legitimizes all government would be completely pointless if we were all nihilistic.

Conversely to your initial point, I think that the world would be a worse place if those cultural expressions were made illegal. If they had never existed in the first place, I dunno.

[Chucara]

Conversely to your initial point, I think that the world would be a worse place if those cultural expressions were made illegal. If they had never existed in the first place, I dunno.

The idea of the discussion was if it had never existed. I am very strongly against any kind of censorship, be it towards religion, video games or anything else (except Tom Cruise).

[Brugdor]

I think religion is important, but no more than language or art or other expressions of culture/faith.

And not to be directly argumentative, but I think the assertion that the bible has remained completely accurate over thousands of years of translation is just ignorant. The point of this forum isn't to get into that discussion, so we can move that to another topic, but the translations of the bible that exist TODAY contradict each other, and I don't see how it's possible that they all came from the dead sea scrolls if they don't say the same thing.

That there are existing translations that aren't accurate is true. Especially now that certain groups have decided to take gender away from God and such in various translations. However any of the reliable translations (KJ, NKJ, NAS, NIV, etc) are all accurately translated. Having said that, I know the catholics have the Apocrypha as well and protestants don't. So if you are referring to that then you would certainly know more about it than I would.

[Solwyn]

In response to Chucara: Okay in that case I can't say for sure. I think people will always wonder what happens after they die, and some form of questioning religion will always have existed. But if the point of the question is whether people would have had that curiosity but never established systems to define them, I think the world would have been better, just leaving that open for discussion. But as a catholic I love religion, not because I think I am (or anyone else would) go to hell for not going to mass, but I like mass because I get to meet with other people with the same faith and express the same things. So I guess if the question is would the world be better without the crusades and tom cruise but still keep church, then yeah I'd be down. But part of the identity I got (when I converted in college) came from catholicism, and without that I'd be different. Better or worse? I dunno. Different for sure though.

In response to Brugdor: I didn't mean just the "apocrypha," which are made up completely of old testament books, so I don't think those cause much division except for historically. I mean that current translations you listed (namely the KJ versus the NAS) contradict each other on minor points which to me don't matter, but that cause divisions within churches. I was "interdenominational" christian before I converted to catholicism so I personally own a KJV, NAS, and NIV study bible in addition to the NAB (New American Bible) which is the official bible of the American Catholic Church. We can discuss this in another thread, I don't wanna threadjack Chucara here, as it's not really the point. But I think your case for divinely inspired text requires that the spirit of the text and the letter of the text have to be identical, and they're all very different.

[Sweetpea]

Religion isn't bad in itself, its extremist, unquestioning belief which is bad.
plus, the view that there is only One correct religion which still mystifies me and trying to convince other people to accept your world view?

I say to them 'you know what, you believe what you believe and leave me to believe what I want.  It bears no relevance to you whether I get to heaven or not so why are you trying to convince me to accept your God?'

at this point they usually say its 'Christian Love and Charity'.  'Yeah? What about the Crusades? Not terribly charitable there were ya? Hitler said he was a Christian, what do you make of that?' 

Usually the ones who have only read the Bible will be running away, whereas the ones who have had a bit of time to read and think about what they believe in will enter into what usually turns out to be a good debate.

I dont like how religion teaches unquestioning faith as a virtue, the more you don't question, the more Holy or righteous you are....hmmm.......controlling much?

I used to say I was agnostic but now I know I was just holding onto the indoctrination I got when I was a kid.  I've read and learned and now I'm the happiest little Atheist you'll ever meet.

[BlueCross]

We're holding some religion classes in the Vestibule right now.

Currently there are only openings for... um... *cough*  er... wenches.

Bring wine.

[Brugdor]

Hitler said he was a Christian, what do you make of that?' 

And I know this guy Joe who thinks he's the Queen of England but that doesn't actually make him the Queen of England.

I take it from your stance on the crusades that you think the Muslims were holding all that land peacefully until we evil christians came along and killed them?    I'm not saying I agree with everything the crusaders did but those wars typically get painted with a very one sided brush by non-christians.

[Hoopy Frood]

I'm not saying I agree with everything the crusaders did but those wars typically get painted with a very one sided brush by non-christians.

Except for the fact that it gets painted very similarly by Christians as well. Just ask all the various Orthodox Arabs and Greeks. My girlfriend finds your statement extremely laughable.

[Brugdor]

I'm not saying I agree with everything the crusaders did but those wars typically get painted with a very one sided brush by non-christians.

Except for the fact that it gets painted very similarly by Christians as well. Just ask all the various Orthodox Arabs and Greeks. My girlfriend finds your statement extremely laughable.

I'm not painting it that way at all. I just said I didn't agree with everything they did. There was even a group of christians a few years back that traveled the route of the crusades and stopped to apologize to the Jews and Muslims along the way for the actions of the crusaders.

However people tend to whitewash the actions of Muslims (Persian empire)  that helped to cause the crusades as well.

And is it just a given now that if I make any statement in the debate forum you are going to be a colossal troll and try to put words in my mouth?

[The SysMan]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Jews and Muslims apologised to were anything less than friendly.

Yes, apologising seems nice, but ultimately does nothing.
"Thanks. You're not the ones who needed to apologise, since the perps are already dead, and thanks again for bringing up a painful memory."

I find religious wars amusing. As if their punishment after death for not following your faith wasn't enough.
To me, it smacks of not thinking your own all-powerful deity can handle things himself.
Heck, it was one of the laws in the 'old testament' Qur'an. Don't claim religious reasons for fighting a war. God is quite capable of fighting his own battles. He doesn't need your help.
How they managed to murder it into "kill the infidels and get your virgins now!" is waaaay beyond me. Some serious Balseraph action there, methinks.

[A.S.S.R.]

I only approve of religions that enforce my infallibility and demand its followers pay tithe, direct-deposit, into my savings account.

Thanks to the magic of interpretative mysticism, these requirements can be stretched to most of the existing ones.

Now pay up or burn.