Author Topic: Terrorist convicted - the left cries  (Read 43288 times)

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Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #60 on: August 25, 2007, 12:06:44 AM »

Fine. Then why should we trust them? Why shold we not hold their feet to the flames and make them justify every decision they make?

Why should we allow them to go to war on evidence that is far from clear cut?

I'm still waiting on an answer to these.

They should have to justify their actions but we also have to understand again that they have information that we don't have.

We should allow them to go to war when all of congress agrees to go to war which is what happened with Iraq. It wasn't one guy despite the lies that the Democrats have been telling for years now. They were presented with the evidence and acted on that evidence. The same evidence that led Bill Clinton and other Democrats to make statements about Saddam being a threat before Bush ever took power.

Now if you aren't happy with the evidence then attack the CIA who gathered and presented it. Demand that heads roll at CIA HQ.
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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2007, 01:43:58 AM »
Of course, we should also realise that they need more then a couple of days to read through the justifications to be used before voting on going to war as well.


Anyways, they might have info we dont have but we are morally obligated to demand to know why we should invest in a war... and to do so with actual demostratable ways as opposed to saying 'well they have a truck that could be anything but we are saying is this a bad truck'.


We are owed atleast a logical explination with points that are entirely provable before hand before we are commited to a war.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #62 on: August 25, 2007, 06:39:37 AM »
Of course, we should also realise that they need more then a couple of days to read through the justifications to be used before voting on going to war as well.

Yeah I know. It's almost like they already knew what was in the report because it's the same thing that had been reported all throughout the 90s that caused them to want to invade back then.

/sarcasm
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #63 on: August 25, 2007, 03:29:08 PM »
Which still doesnt mean they have enough time to read through what the official justifications are  going to be.. not to mention that only one part was 'what was there in the 90's'.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #64 on: August 25, 2007, 06:05:46 PM »
Which still doesnt mean they have enough time to read through what the official justifications are  going to be.. not to mention that only one part was 'what was there in the 90's'.

*sigh* They already knew what they were! All you have to do is look back at all those quotes from the Democrats on Saddam prior to Bush being elected. It was Clinton's prawn to remove him and they were backing his prawn with statements about his threat to the US.

Stuff like this is why I consider you a leftist. You are completely unable to put these facts together because you REFUSE to see the Democrats at fault in any way shape or form regarding the invasion of Iraq. You don't want to believe that they had a hand in it and so you pretend that they didn't to make yourself feel better. Just like they didn't have a hand in signing the Patriot Act and just like they didn't have a hand in wiretapping (which btw, they just signed again).

Edit to add that I saw Bill Mahrer a few days ago saying that he's not a leftist and so I imagine it's just become the party line to say that now. So I can't really blame you I guess but if virtually every stance you have is to the extreme left (abortion on demand, open borders, cut and run, impeach Bush, Karl Rove and Haliburton are running the country, etc) then guess what? You're a leftist.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2007, 06:24:03 PM by Brugdor »
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #65 on: August 25, 2007, 07:41:25 PM »
And yet you miss the point.


Just because something was common perception before hand doesnt mean they KNEW what would be in the justifications put out by Bush.


The point? You cant know what is in a document until you read it.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #66 on: August 25, 2007, 08:05:43 PM »
And yet you miss the point.


Just because something was common perception before hand doesnt mean they KNEW what would be in the justifications put out by Bush.


The point? You cant know what is in a document until you read it.

They had ample time to read it and the evidence was presented to the UN before we went in by Powell but thanks for proving my point.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #67 on: August 25, 2007, 08:43:27 PM »
Im still not too sure what point you are trying to make to be honest? Is it just that they said this stuff when they were in power? Duh. I doubt anyone here will deny that(and I certainly havent).


The point Im making, though, is that what one group stated back in the 90's doesnt constitute 'official' position and that to say 'well, they said it back in the 90's!', while pointing out hypocracy of their stance, doesnt automaticly mean they understood in great detail every justification laid out before them before even reading the 'official' justifications reports prior to the vote to give the president power. So, are they a bunch of hypocrits? Yes, but there cant be any claim that anyone outside of those directly involved in building the case would know the ins and out of the justifications used without reading it.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #68 on: August 25, 2007, 10:54:24 PM »
Im still not too sure what point you are trying to make to be honest? Is it just that they said this stuff when they were in power? Duh. I doubt anyone here will deny that(and I certainly havent).


The point Im making, though, is that what one group stated back in the 90's doesnt constitute 'official' position and that to say 'well, they said it back in the 90's!', while pointing out hypocracy of their stance, doesnt automaticly mean they understood in great detail every justification laid out before them before even reading the 'official' justifications reports prior to the vote to give the president power. So, are they a bunch of hypocrits? Yes, but there cant be any claim that anyone outside of those directly involved in building the case would know the ins and out of the justifications used without reading it.

Bush used the same justifications that the Democrats did years before him. Saddam was a threat, he was making WMDs including nukes, and he was supporting terrorists. So to sit there and say the Democrats didn't know is just a ludicrous argument.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2007, 12:59:54 AM »
*sigh* Again, you miss what Im saying.


Im not saying 'they didnt know!' but that until they read the official justification report, they dont know what justifications will be used. In other words, until Bush filed his case for why we should go to war and those in congress read it.. then it doesnt matter what was being said before hand.


For all you know he could have filed because Saddam kicked over his sand castle when he was a kid. My point is just because they were saying the stuff they were saying 'in the 90's, that doesnt automaticly give them insight as to what exactly will be used. Again, the Only ones who would know what is and isnt going to be used prior to those files being released to congress are those who are actually preparing them.. so just because they were saying this stuff in the past isnt tantamount to them knowing what, exactly, would be in the 'justifications for war' documents as soon as they are released.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2007, 03:45:55 AM »
*sigh* Again, you miss what Im saying.


Im not saying 'they didnt know!' but that until they read the official justification report, they dont know what justifications will be used. In other words, until Bush filed his case for why we should go to war and those in congress read it.. then it doesnt matter what was being said before hand.


For all you know he could have filed because Saddam kicked over his sand castle when he was a kid. My point is just because they were saying the stuff they were saying 'in the 90's, that doesnt automaticly give them insight as to what exactly will be used. Again, the Only ones who would know what is and isnt going to be used prior to those files being released to congress are those who are actually preparing them.. so just because they were saying this stuff in the past isnt tantamount to them knowing what, exactly, would be in the 'justifications for war' documents as soon as they are released.

Your argument makes absolutely zero sense but if the time frame the Democrats had to read over the case for the invasion is your big defense then they always could have voted not to go. So even if you had somehow managed to scrape together a valid point to defend them, that's shot to heck.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2007, 04:19:27 AM »
Im not trying to defend them though, Im just pointing out that the previous perception doesnt give automatic insight to the justifications as you have been presenting it does.

I mean, you are the ones going 'but but but they said it in the 90's so they MUST know what was in it before hand'.


My only original point was that this war was rushed from the very beginning, including the amount of time that congress was given to read the entire justification file. To expect that just because they said simular stuff meant that they knew what was in those files is a bit ludicrious and that goes for everyone, not just the democrats.


Again, the entire point of the last few points isnt to defend the democrats but to say that the idea that they KNEW what was in the report before they even read it because they said simular stuff previously is borderline idiotic because for all they knew about the justifications before reading the official position is that they could say that someone pissed in Bush's wheaties and that's why ne had to go to war.. in other words, the only way to know the 'official' position is to actaully read it and not go on 'past perception'.

Are they hypocrits? Yep but so is pretty much anyone else on capitol hill and pointing that out is just like saying 'Duh' to 2+2=4.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2007, 05:17:54 AM »
Im not trying to defend them though, Im just pointing out that the previous perception doesnt give automatic insight to the justifications as you have been presenting it does.

I mean, you are the ones going 'but but but they said it in the 90's so they MUST know what was in it before hand'.


My only original point was that this war was rushed from the very beginning, including the amount of time that congress was given to read the entire justification file. To expect that just because they said simular stuff meant that they knew what was in those files is a bit ludicrious and that goes for everyone, not just the democrats.


Again, the entire point of the last few points isnt to defend the democrats but to say that the idea that they KNEW what was in the report before they even read it because they said simular stuff previously is borderline idiotic because for all they knew about the justifications before reading the official position is that they could say that someone pissed in Bush's wheaties and that's why ne had to go to war.. in other words, the only way to know the 'official' position is to actaully read it and not go on 'past perception'.

Are they hypocrits? Yep but so is pretty much anyone else on capitol hill and pointing that out is just like saying 'Duh' to 2+2=4.

And again, if they didn't know what was in it, all they had to do was vote not to go to war and tell Bush they needed more time to look over the intelligence. But of course they DID know what was in it and they DID read it and they have been lying about it for years because people like you buy it.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2007, 05:36:32 AM »
And yet I never said I bought it.


Of course you want to ignore that ive been one of the few people who's been consistant about my stance the entire time.


Again, they are a bunch of hypocrits, along with pretty much everyone else who's in politics.


Again, the only point Ive been trying to made is against your assertation that just because they made the same arguemenst earlier ment that they should know exactly whats in a document.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2007, 06:01:44 AM »

Again, the only point Ive been trying to made is against your assertation that just because they made the same arguemenst earlier ment that they should know exactly whats in a document.

 If you want to play little games saying they didn't know what the justifications were when they spent an entire decade listing them for us then go right ahead but I'm not buying it.

You keep saying you don't buy into the lies but you keep trying to find ways to defend what they did.

*throws hands up in the air*

Whatever.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney