Author Topic: Terrorist convicted - the left cries  (Read 43324 times)

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Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2007, 09:25:16 PM »
I justify it by the fact that we agreed that we would hold our troops to those standards.

We agreed with the other countries that signed it, yes. Please show me Osama's signature on it and then you can say we entered that treaty with Al-Queda.
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Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2007, 10:09:31 PM »
Which goes back to the 'Even if only one party is a signatory, that party is bound by the convention' part.

Chucara

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2007, 08:13:32 PM »
The problem is this, Brugdor:

If they are lawful combatants, they should be treated as indicated in the Geneva convention. I don't think they are lawful combatants. And you can keep them until the war is over.

If they are unlawful combatants, they are entitled to a civilian trial in the country where the offense occurred.

Yet, you claim they shouldn't have a trial and that you keep them until the war of terror is over. I just don't see any shred of logic except "They're all evil terrorists and they deserve to suffer".

Like I said earlier, if you're going to use the Geneva convention as an excuse, you better actually follow it. Strangely, you can't just pick the parts you like.

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2007, 09:12:48 PM »
*nods* Ive been looking all over and have yet to find any magic loophole for these people to fall through. Even the provisions being pointed to to justify the actions being taken lay out basic rights that have been denied.(5th article of GC IV, for example).

There is no magical 'third' option of classification. Either they are lawful combatants, thus subject to the provisions of the Third conventions, or they are unlawful combatants and subject to the provisions of the fourth.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2007, 10:33:21 PM »
Bottom line is that they will be held, they will be tortured and they will give up information that saves the lives of people like you who would rather they succeed just so you can say, "Bushitler's war" is failing.

The individuals and countries that don't like it don't matter to me. Their stances will make them irrelevant in near future since militant Islam will see their weakness and pounce.

There is absolutely zero justification for tying the hands of our troops and our government when they are trying to deal with these animals (Yes, someone who beheads a captured civilian on video is an animal. Deal with it.)  If you people are going to keep throwing the Geneva Convention in our faces then you need to apply it equally to our enemies. But of course you never will. It's my opinion that we should simply tell everyone that we are dropping the treaty since our enemies don't abide by it anyway.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

The SysMan

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2007, 10:52:01 PM »
Pfft. Just assume "Take no quarter" and deal with the problem.
As long as you don't say it, it should be fine. >.>
<.<

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Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2007, 12:38:52 AM »
The problem there, brug, is that you are taking a very short sighted stance.


Willfully ignoring our international agreements will and does have far reaching consaquences. Both in the stability of our stance on these issues and the fact that it undermines our credibility when it comes to working out and making deals.


So, sure, we can save a few lives now but in the long run we could be saving many more lives by holding true to our agreements. Should I bring in a Franklin quote again?


Again, I gave you the options we have. The reason we have to tie our troops hands in this situation is that we agreed with the world that we would tie our hands in this situation. Is it fair? Hell no but ultimately that is what we said we would do.. so either we hold to our agreements and tie our hands.. or we withdraw from our agreements and do whatever we want, willingly giving up the perks and privlages we get from those agreements.


Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2007, 12:44:08 AM »

 Hell no but ultimately that is what we said we would do.. so either we hold to our agreements and tie our hands.. or we withdraw from our agreements and do whatever we want, willingly giving up the perks and privlages we get from those agreements.



and those are what exactly?

As far as I can tell the GC is just an excuse for people to whine at this point. If it doesn't apply to the people we are fighting then what's the friggin point?
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2007, 01:02:45 AM »
Welcome to the world of Neo-Conservatism Brug.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2007, 01:07:02 AM »
Welcome to the world of Neo-Conservatism Brug.

What on earth does that mean? Are you saying I'm a Neo-Conservative? Are you saying that Neo-Conservatism somehow created the issue of the GC only applying to us? I have no idea what you are talking about.
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2007, 01:15:24 AM »
Nope, but that the idea that we should do whatever we want militarily, consaquences be damned is pretty damn Neo-Conservative.

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2007, 01:24:42 AM »
Oh, and just so you know where Im coming from on this:


You are only looking at the immediate problem. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this situation in the first place. This is why Al-Queda became so strong with US support, this is why Iraq was able to get so many chem and biological weapons. This is why Iran became an Islamic republic, this is why we supported a brutal dictator in Vietnam, guaranteeing our efforts there would fail.


It is this boneheaded idea that we should only deal with the  problem right infront of us with no thought towards what that means to the future that we are currently in the mess that we, as a country, are in... and this idea that our agreements are only valid when it's convenient to us is why we are so hated across so much of the world.


Open your eyes and look ahead for once and consider, for once, that our actions now does have an impact on the future and that while right now, we might be able to save a few more lives by doing whatever by whatever means possible... but that carries a very real possability of costing more lives in the future, much like how Reagans decisions in the 80's are costing us so many lives today.

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2007, 01:38:46 AM »
Oh, and just so you know where Im coming from on this:


You are only looking at the immediate problem. This is the kind of thinking that has gotten us into this situation in the first place. This is why Al-Queda became so strong with US support, this is why Iraq was able to get so many chem and biological weapons. This is why Iran became an Islamic republic, this is why we supported a brutal dictator in Vietnam, guaranteeing our efforts there would fail.


It is this boneheaded idea that we should only deal with the  problem right infront of us with no thought towards what that means to the future that we are currently in the mess that we, as a country, are in... and this idea that our agreements are only valid when it's convenient to us is why we are so hated across so much of the world.


Open your eyes and look ahead for once and consider, for once, that our actions now does have an impact on the future and that while right now, we might be able to save a few more lives by doing whatever by whatever means possible... but that carries a very real possability of costing more lives in the future, much like how Reagans decisions in the 80's are costing us so many lives today.

Yes, Ronald Reagan created teh terrorism.  ::)
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney

Celest

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2007, 01:56:30 AM »
Lets see.. turning Al-Quada from a fairly disorgonized 'freedom fighter' force to what it is (not to mention that it's arguable that the funding and weapons from the CIA was pivotal to the foundation of the group).

Not to mention that we actively assisted it in recruiting fighters from across the world, even allowing Abul Rahman to come to the US to recruit. If you dont remember who he is, he was one of the ones responsable for the '93 bombing on the WTC. Oh, that is also ignoring that we willfully funded and supplied the group with arms and allowed them to obtain the streingth that they were able to gain before they started attacking us.

So yes, Reagan, the CIA and a few other groups of the US government in the 80's is responsable for what al-Quada has done to us ever since and responsable for the position we are in.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2007, 02:01:25 AM by Celest »

Brugdor

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Re: Terrorist convicted - the left cries
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2007, 04:38:32 AM »
Lets see.. turning Al-Quada from a fairly disorgonized 'freedom fighter' force to what it is (not to mention that it's arguable that the funding and weapons from the CIA was pivotal to the foundation of the group).

Not to mention that we actively assisted it in recruiting fighters from across the world, even allowing Abul Rahman to come to the US to recruit. If you dont remember who he is, he was one of the ones responsable for the '93 bombing on the WTC. Oh, that is also ignoring that we willfully funded and supplied the group with arms and allowed them to obtain the streingth that they were able to gain before they started attacking us.

So yes, Reagan, the CIA and a few other groups of the US government in the 80's is responsable for what al-Quada has done to us ever since and responsable for the position we are in.

Umm...it's more like that these groups have been against us ever since we started backing Israel. Whether or not we should have meddled as much as we did over there after that point I really don't know. I don't know the history of what was going on and what our interests were each time we intervened. Surely some were good decision and some were bad though.

As for your contention that teh Reaganhitler created  all this mess, I seem to remember a slight problem we had with Iran before Reagan was elected.  :P
"When planning a new picture we don't think of grown ups and we don't think of children but just of that fine, clean, unspoiled spot down deep in every one of us that maybe the world has made us forget and that maybe our pictures can help recall." - Walt Disney