Who did you vote for?

[Solwyn]

The reaction to people who don't want to participate in a democratic election always amuses me.  Do you all believe that castigating someone for not voting is altruistic or somehow trying to defend that person's interests despite their stupid beliefs?

Seems more like encouraging non-compliant people to participate in a system they don't believe in is an attempt to ratify your choice.

My opinion is that you can choose whether to vote or not, but I think if you don't vote you completely give up your right to complain about the candidate. If you voted FOR them, you can say "they aren't living up to the promises they made when I agreed to vote for them," and if you voted against them you can say "well I never agreed with their point of view anyway."

If you didn't vote then I respect your choice, but if you whine about our president being an idiot you can die in a fire.
 

[AcdQueen89]

i can whine on grounds that people are idiots rather than due to grounds of 'i didnt vote for him'?

cuz all people are idiots, its jsut a matter to waht degree

[Solwyn]

i can whine on grounds that people are idiots rather than due to grounds of 'i didnt vote for him'?

cuz all people are idiots, its jsut a matter to waht degree

I'll refer to my earlier post...

[AcdQueen89]

i didnt elaborate on that right.

i'm kinda more thinking about the fact that he is a human, can i complain? like how i complain about the rest of the humans in the world. my full question is more along the lines of, is he automatically exempt from that because he's prez elect?

[Solwyn]

i didnt elaborate on that right.

i'm kinda more thinking about the fact that he is a human, can i complain? like how i complain about the rest of the humans in the world. my full question is more along the lines of, is he automatically exempt from that because he's prez elect?

Ah gotcha. Note: I was being an A-hole and telling you to die in a fire.

But I see what you're saying. No my point was people who whine about "how did this clown get into office" and "how dare someone this stupid become president" and they have no right to complain about their own inaction.

[Doombot]

Even if the third party doesn't win... don't they get access to funds if they manage to pull in 5% of the votes?

IF that's true... then isn't it still good to vote for the person even if there's a little chance of winning.

Besides the whole... do your part as an American thing and vote.

[Bubonic]

To those who choose not to vote...

The only justification that I can think of for not voting is that you know so little about the candidates and their policy stances that you actually have no preference (or at the very least, a highly uninformed one).  Outside of this, I believe that you should vote.  Personally, I don't believe that the representative democracy system that is used by much of the first world (even those with figurehead monarchies like the UK and its colonies) is a very good system.  It breeds a situation where legal entities (ie corporations) with no conscience and lots of money actually have more influence than any real person.  To me, this is bad.  However, I still vote, because this is the system of government that we currently have, and until I (or, more likely, someone much smarter than I) comes up with a better system, we're stuck with this one.  And so we do what we can.  That means voting.  And asking your local politician questions.

Until something better comes along, it's what we CAN do.  Therefore, I believe it's what we SHOULD do.  Otherwise how will things ever get any better?  Or even, how will they not continue to get worse?

[Solwyn]

Also, no offense intended to anyone here who feels this way...

But refusing to take action until AFTER something changes is the most backwards-ass logic ever. Change doesn't happen if everyone is twiddling their thumbs and waiting for it, it happens if you are wasting time and money on a losing cause, like democracy... or getting Firefly put back on the air.

[Brugdor]

Until something better comes along, it's what we CAN do.  Therefore, I believe it's what we SHOULD do.  Otherwise how will things ever get any better?  Or even, how will they not continue to get worse?

Well some would argue that buying into the system with a vote is ensuring that nothing better will ever come along. Every vote for a Republican or Democrat is affirmation to them that they are getting away with what they're doing. Third parties are an option but if the playing field is so heavily stacked against them that they can't even make a dent then trying to truly change anything through the current system is impossible.

I guess my anger and frustration is from being completely disenfranchised as a voter. There's nowhere to turn for people who truly want change. And before anyone that voted for either McCain or Obama argues that they truly do want change, why were you willing to look beyond the lies, shady dealings, questionable associations, corporate money, etc that both of them were guilty of? For McCain voters I have to assume it was just either an undying loyalty to the Republican party that I just flat out don't understand or a vote against the other guy. The "lesser of two evils" vote. For Obama voters I dunno. I get the feeling most of them weren't voting for the "lesser evil" reason except maybe the die hard Hillary supporters that voted for him. I think people got caught up in his celebrity and charismatic speeches. Assumptions on my part but it's the only conclusion I can come to. There just isn't any substance to either of these guys.

Why isn't there more anger from the average voter that the two parties have worked together to all but eliminate any other choices from the ballots? People should be livid but they just don't care.

I don't get it.  *shrug*

[Bubonic]

Well some would argue that buying into the system with a vote is ensuring that nothing better will ever come along.

I disagree.  If you see something better, by all means, support it.  If you feel so strongly about the current system, then start a movement to change it - voice your ideas, your alternatives, see who else agrees, and debate your solution with those who don't, refine it.  That is how change happens.   Well, that or revolution, but you get the idea.

Simply refusing to vote won't make things any better.  In fact, I doubt anyone will really care.  I'm not saying you have to agree with the status quo, but I do believe that you should use whatever power the existing system gives you.  And that means either finding the least objectionable candidate and voting for them, or taking your ideas on the road and giving like-minded people another candidate.

Anyway, just my two bits.

[JC]

My opinion is that you can choose whether to vote or not, but I think if you don't vote you completely give up your right to complain about the candidate. If you voted FOR them, you can say "they aren't living up to the promises they made when I agreed to vote for them," and if you voted against them you can say "well I never agreed with their point of view anyway."

If you didn't vote then I respect your choice, but if you whine about our president being an idiot you can die in a fire.
 

So you can't see any possible alternatives to voting for someone?  Why can't you vote for... no one?  This would preserve your need to register a "protest" vote and avoid the suggestion that you're a lazy idiot who can die in a fire.  Various provincial elections in Canada now give you the option to return your vote.  You register to vote, go to the polling station on election day and return your ballot empty.  These are counted as a separate grouping from the people who didn't vote at all.

The more important philosophical question though relates to what Burgdor is saying.  When you vote, are you simply voting for a candidate or a party or is there more to it?  I'd suggest that each time you vote you are (a) Voting for party/candidate and (b) Voting for the voting system itself.  Participation (without a ballot return option) assumes assent. 

Let's assume a situation in which vote returning is possible and 51% of the votes are returned.  Does the candidate or party with the highest number of votes after that win, or have the people rather decided to throw out the whole election or electoral system?  Would an entrenched political system want to make possible an event or system which could bring about its own end?

Sorry, your "vote for the third option" is bullshit and you know it.  Unless you have a vote return option in the US fed election (and so far as I can see you don't), then you have no reasonable means of protest aside from not voting at all.

[Solwyn]

So you can't see any possible alternatives to voting for someone?  Why can't you vote for... no one?  This would preserve your need to register a "protest" vote and avoid the suggestion that you're a lazy idiot who can die in a fire.  Various provincial elections in Canada now give you the option to return your vote.  You register to vote, go to the polling station on election day and return your ballot empty.  These are counted as a separate grouping from the people who didn't vote at all.

Well see abstaining from voting is a choice, and a valid one. And I don't think you deserve to die in a fire if you do make that choice. But then you accept that you don't like the system and refuse to take part in it, and therefore you have lost the right to complain about that choice. It's like refusing to go to a party and then whining that you didn't get to go to the party. That was YOUR choice, so get the fuck over it.

Mostly, it's in reference to this guy I know who claims he doesn't vote because he feels that gives him the right to complain, which is the most backwards thing I've heard this year.

Let's assume a situation in which vote returning is possible and 51% of the votes are returned.  Does the candidate or party with the highest number of votes after that win, or have the people rather decided to throw out the whole election or electoral system?  Would an entrenched political system want to make possible an event or system which could bring about its own end?

Sorry, your "vote for the third option" is bullshit and you know it.  Unless you have a vote return option in the US fed election (and so far as I can see you don't), then you have no reasonable means of protest aside from not voting at all.

Are you saying that voting for the third option is in fact NOT an impossible task, or are you saying that the third party option is stupid?

And as far as protest, to me returning your ballot says that you refuse to choose anyone to be your leader, and that's the system you're against: you'd rather have one appointed for you. To me, if you want to protest the candidates, you write in the one you really want to be your leader, even if they haven't been nominated, which suggests that your choice was not on the ballot.

[Brugdor]

Well see abstaining from voting is a choice, and a valid one. And I don't think you deserve to die in a fire if you do make that choice. But then you accept that you don't like the system and refuse to take part in it, and therefore you have lost the right to complain about that choice. It's like refusing to go to a party and then whining that you didn't get to go to the party. That was YOUR choice, so get the fuck over it.

Actually there are other ways to be involved.  I would encourage anyone that either votes or doesn't to find groups that regularly ask you to email your representatives when important issues are up for a vote. For instance,  I've been on CAGW's (Citizens Against Government Waste) mailing list for years. They even have the form mail all done for you when these issues come out so if you want you don't even have to write any of your own text. It still sends an email urging your representative to either vote or not vote for whatever the bill is.

[Silver Dragon]

Well see abstaining from voting is a choice, and a valid one. And I don't think you deserve to die in a fire if you do make that choice. But then you accept that you don't like the system and refuse to take part in it, and therefore you have lost the right to complain about that choice. It's like refusing to go to a party and then whining that you didn't get to go to the party. That was YOUR choice, so get the fuck over it.

Mostly, it's in reference to this guy I know who claims he doesn't vote because he feels that gives him the right to complain, which is the most backwards thing I've heard this year.

That's ridiculous.  Whether or not I vote has no bearing whatsoever on my right to complain.  If that were true, then no-one would have any right to complain about anything they did not directly participate in.  No more complaining about movies that suck because you didn't help make it.  No more complaining about cable tv channels that suck because you don't help select the programming.  No more complaining about the prices at your favorite restaurant, you didn't help make the menu.  No more complaining about speed limits or traffic laws because you didn't help determine them.  If I go to Seattle to a sporting event and they want to charge me 25$ for parking because the facility's owners decided that's what they were going to charge, I can't complain (whether I park there or not)?  Horse pucky!  I agree with your acquaintance to certain extent:  not voting doesn't give him the right to complain, but voting certainly doesn't give him the right either, if that were true, it wouldn't be a right, it would be a privilege.

Mostly it seems I hear the "Did you vote?  No?  Then stop complaining!" line from people who don't want to hear criticism about whomever they voted for, or just in general don't want to hear criticism unless its coming from their own mouths or they agree with what you're saying.  And that's my two cents at 4 a.m.

[Solwyn]

That's ridiculous.  Whether or not I vote has no bearing whatsoever on my right to complain. 

I think we're looking at this in different ways. The only (ONLY) way you are INTENDED to participate in the democratic process is the power of the vote. You're talking about the other side of things... for example.

No more complaining about movies that suck because you didn't help make it.

My example would be you don't have a right to say a movie sucked if you never saw it, because as a consumer you have the right to complain but only if you consumed it. If not, watch the movie, THEN whine. It's not your role as a movie-goer to make a movie, it's your role to WATCH it. Just like it's not your role to participate in the legislative process unless you're a legislator, only to vote for who does your legislation.

No more complaining about cable tv channels that suck because you don't help select the programming. 

Again, in my example you'd have no right to complain about the channel if you don't pay for cable, or if you don't even have a TV in the house.

No more complaining about the prices at your favorite restaurant, you didn't help make the menu. 

That's different, as a consumer, that affects you. Your choice is to not go there, driving down demand, which then brings down the price.

No more complaining about speed limits or traffic laws because you didn't help determine them. 

In this case, if you don't agree with a traffic law, you have the choice as a citizen to bring this up to YOUR ELECTED legislator. Or if you didn't elect them, send them a letter anyway, their job is to make their constituents happy. Otherwise, QQ.

If I go to Seattle to a sporting event and they want to charge me 25$ for parking because the facility's owners decided that's what they were going to charge, I can't complain (whether I park there or not)? 

Once again as a consumer, that's your choice. Take a bus to protest. Park eight blocks away where it's cheaper. That is what you can do.

My point in all this is that I'm sick of people whining that they have no control over the system, and instead of actively trying to change it (by voting, writing letters, etc) they whine. 

Mostly it seems I hear the "Did you vote?  No?  Then stop complaining!" line from people who don't want to hear criticism about whomever they voted for, or just in general don't want to hear criticism unless its coming from their own mouths or they agree with what you're saying.  And that's my two cents at 4 a.m.

I have heard that argument a lot. But my point is that living in Texas I am SO sick of hearing people call Obama "the Messiah" and mockingly talk about "how the Chosen One is going to save us from our financial crisis by being a socialist." So I say "did you vote for McCain?" And they say "No, I didn't vote at all, it's stupid. There's no way we could have won!"
THAT is the bullshit, especially since Texas's electoral votes went to McCain. And instead of writing letters to their congressman to oppose the policies they don't agree with, they just sit around and whine.

The only power we have as citizens is the right of the vote. Our legislators are supposed to work for us. If they're not making us happy, we need to stop voting them in. People say "well I can't beat the system, they have all this money going into them."

So? Did they pay you to vote for them? If so, report yourself, then go to jail and then hang yourself for being a dumbass. Did your refuse to vote? Vote next time, and fire them, because they're a terrible employee.