Author Topic: More Classics stuff  (Read 10247 times)

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AcdQueen89

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More Classics stuff
« on: October 23, 2007, 05:12:51 PM »
i'm starting this in a new thread because i dont want the discussion form the other thread to affect this question too much. the ending of TK's post brought up what i am going to bring up here.

is harry potter the next classic?

this is my original question, but to define such classical literature needs to be defined. i dont want you guys doing my homework, i only ask here because you may bring up other ideas that i hadn't thought about and if it is alright with everyone i would like to take a few quotes and use them in my paper. i will message individuals about what i am using exactly and if someone wants to read my finished paper i will pass it on through email when it is completed.
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Solwyn

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2007, 05:31:27 PM »
I'm not sure I grasp your meaning. Do you mean the style of Harry Potter, or the Harry Potter generation, or are you saying specifically JK Rowling's Harry Potter Books: Will they be considered classic once enough time has passed to kind of them in that way?
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AcdQueen89

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2007, 05:45:23 PM »
specifically the harry potter books.
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Wraith

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2007, 06:10:15 PM »
Hmm.

It's always possible, but I tend to doubt it.  The Harry Potter books are popular, and many would even say excellent.  Those criteria tend to often be very low on the list when determining whether something becomes a classic or not though.  There's really no hard and fast rule, but it seems to me that most works which are ultimately considered classics weren't typically all that popular in their day.  I wouldn't be surprised if what it really came down to was that the artsy-fartsy portion of society picked out really obscure, dry as hell, or otherwise less than notable works so they could lay hands on them and have them in their collections.  Then when asked, they could play it off as if anyone who's *anyone* should have those books, and obviously if you needed to ask, you just didn't get it.

Sort of like some of the crap that passes off as modern art.  It's not valuable or desirable because it's actually any good, it's just because a small group of snobs say so.

This of course would mean that quite often, there'd be two types of books on everyone's shelves.  Ones that were actually popular and well-written, so lots of people bought them in order to actually read them, and then the "classics", which quite often no one in the entire household has picked up in decades, because wading through the thing is more painful than going to the dentist for drilling without novacaine.  Still, they're "classics", so you need to have them up there, or they'll make fun of you and call you uncultured.

*Shrug*  Ok, that was all perhaps a bit trite, but I guess the point here is that it's really impossible to guess whether something that's currently popular and mainstream will become a classic.  Part of what defines a classic is whether or not it transcends the passage of time, and whether or not it will, at least in part, appeal in any way to future generations.  At least, those things *should* be part of what determines a classic.  Some works that make it on the list leave me seriously wondering at times whether the copies sent out to the people in charge of determining such status were perhaps printed on sheets of acid, since I got little out of them but a stiff neck from constantly falling asleep trying to read the damn things.

(P.S.  Boo.  Yeah, yeah.  It's me again.  Didn't feel like posting a "Hey, I'm back" thread, so hey.  I'm back.  :P)

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2007, 08:19:02 PM »
I would say no.

While Wraith has a point that many "classics" are actually not that great themselves, there are also many that truly deserve their position in lists of "classics."

Harry Potter books do not. Rowling's strength is in her characters. She makes complex, yet believable (within the context of the world she created) personas. These characters remain consistent in of themselves. They grow, but in a logical fashion.

However, Rowling's writing style leaves a lot to be desired. She really doesn't break any new ground in plotlines (though, due to the fleshing out of her character's, she can approach them differently.) Her verbiage isn't particularly noteworthy either. There also is a bit of disconnecting feel between the books.

But, she spins a good yarn and has gotten many children interested in reading, and for that she should be commended. But at this point, I would never put her books up with the likes of Roald Dahl, CS Lewis, or Madeline L'Engel.
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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2007, 12:25:33 AM »
I hope not.
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JC

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2007, 04:12:27 AM »
I hope not.

This is the first and potentially last time I will ever quote you.

Turjan

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2007, 10:00:10 PM »
I'd say that the Potter books are not a classic - yet.
One of the things about classics is that they're seldom regarded as such at the time. As Owl said in the other thread, a classic is whatever people decide a classic is. This usually happens over time though, because the mood of people is like a wave rolling towards a beach, and any concept it carries with it does take a little time to wash up on the beach.

I've no doubt that one day the Harry Potter books will become a classic, just as other books of sometimes dubious inherent literary merit have been dubbed "classics" over the years. For the time being though, the whole Potter phenomenon is too current to allow the books to slide into their place in history.

(P.S.  Boo.  Yeah, yeah.  It's me again.  Didn't feel like posting a "Hey, I'm back" thread, so hey.  I'm back.  :P)

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Wraith

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2007, 10:17:35 PM »
(P.S.  Boo.  Yeah, yeah.  It's me again.  Didn't feel like posting a "Hey, I'm back" thread, so hey.  I'm back.  :P)

-Wraith
You! :inquisitive:
What are you doing back here? I thought we'd got rid of you last time...guards! Guards! :rifle: :policeman: :bobby:
 :laugh:

Nice to have you back fella, fanfare or not ;D
Guards?  We have guards now?   :inquisitive:

I mean, I walked right by Shiny sleeping in a sunbeam, and I think that guy who dashed past me chasing some damsel or another was BlueCross.  Unless that's what you mean though, I've seen no evidence of these guards of which you speak.

And don't *even* try to sick that Owl guy on me --I come bearing ale.   ;D

And yeah, trumpets or no, it's always good to be back.  Sorry for the minor derailing here, AcdQueen.  If someone really wants to, or if the antics get too out of hand, feel free to split this non-classicy stuff out to some random yarn of silliness of its very own.

Or don't, but just remember, we insubstantial beings are kinda hard to hit with tangerines and pointy sticks.  Doubly so when we brought beer.  The village defense corps never could hit a damn thing when they got good and snockered.  <Insert cheers icon here>

...Wtf.  We've got no bloody :cheers: icon, and you guys are wasting valuable resources on *guards*?!  I protest!

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Night Owl

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2007, 04:45:59 AM »
Hey Wraith!! Good to see you. And you brought ale!!

I've never read a Potter book, but I *do* think they will become classics. Here's why:

The most important part of becoming a classic is time. The story must survive, say, 100 years. Due to the sheer number of copies out there, and the fact that most people won't ever throw them away due to nostalgia (today's 15 y/o's will be saying "I want my kids to read these" when they are 30), these books have an excellent chance of still being printed 100 years from now. Which gives them an excellent chance to be reegarded as classics.


Solwyn

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2007, 05:21:14 AM »
It's hard to say, but I'd say that the Harry Potter series has a good amount of strikes going against it as far as what statistics show end up being classics.

1. Fantasy books are very rarely considered classics. Why? Well as someone's already pointed out (was it TK?) in the other forum, they're very self-referential, and that makes it hard for them to be socially relevant. Ironically, people often state that clasics are timeless, but a majority of the time the books quickest to become classics are the ones that most closely reflect the author's relevant events or philosophies. That's not to say fantasies can't become classics, and some people consider a lot of books geared towards children to be acceptable fantasy classics (CS Lewis, Lloyd Alexander, Susan Cooper). Although I think the adult and general fantasy is slowly becoming accepted as well (JRR Tolkien and TH White for example).

2. As a lot of people have already said, it's very popular right now, which grants it more of a pop-culture status. Academia is becoming more and more close-minded. The interesting part about it is that a hundred years ago, academia avoided folk stories and so forth, and now folk stories are more accepted but if something has any scent of commercialism (movie versions, merchandizing (yeah that's right, it's a z you crazy Brits)). It's not that the ivory tower folks have to lecture using JK Rowling as a topic for 30 years for it to be considered a classic, really. So if academia doesn't like it, I think that enough people can claim it as a classic, especially if they pass it down to their kids.

3. Aside from her ability as a raconteur, she doesn't display a lot of technical prowess in her style. What's additionally relevant lately is that as Thanatos pointed out, her intricate plotlines and complex character correlations are being destroyed by her own strict control over the interpretation of the characters. As a great novelist (was it JD Salinger?) once said, "My work is done as soon as I've signed off on the final draft. If I have to make any changes or explanations off the page, I failed on the page."

4. Not only did she publish the book geared specifically towards children, she published them in a fantasy world, completely of her own design and very strictly determined by way of her contracts (in film for example) that it was for a British audience. While this may or may not affect the way we view it in twenty years, narrowing the appeal of a book can't be helpful on the world stage. Obviously, this book has exploded worldwide, but different countries think about in very different ways because of the target audience of the original version.

That's about enough ranting for me. I don't know how I feel about it becoming a classic. If it does or doesn't, we likely will be too old to care by the time it is declared as such. I think of them more along the lines of other fantasy novels, like Dragonlance or the Wheel of Time series. It's well-written and fun, but if it never evolves beyond the realm of subculture it wouldn't be a crime.
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AcdQueen89

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2007, 06:38:45 PM »
just as an fyi, i'm printing this topic and the other one right now so that i can start getting my outline and info together so that i can begin writing. more discussion is greatly appreciated. my official thesis is going to go along the lines of 'harry potter will probably become a classic but should not due to rowling's lack of solid writing.' but of course that will be worded much better.
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The SysMan

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2007, 09:48:18 PM »
No no no.
You should seriously write:
"Harry Potter is in danger of becoming a classic. If it does, it will completely destroy my faith in humanity because it's crap."
XD
And then cellotape 5 dollars to the thesis so the teacher knows what to do >.>
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AcdQueen89

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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2007, 10:18:57 PM »
i might use that first bit as a thesis. that would make for an interesting paper.

but i'm in college in the states, i have no money.
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Re: More Classics stuff
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2007, 12:12:14 AM »
if it never evolves beyond the realm of subculture it wouldn't be a crime.

Din't yer teacher not tell youse bout double-negativisms?
"for the record, I'm not some kind of psychotic provincialist." - Than (ed: Cit. required)
"I lost my game of NT: Garry's fault. Global warming: Garry's fault. End-of-the-Universe: Garry's fault. See it always fits. Anyway, what is Garry up to? No good I bet." - Laszlo
"As for your French, it's probably better than the average English-speaking Frenchman's Finnish! (Or something.)" - wa
"I'm back at Thunderfalls now and every minute thinking of poking a bandit in the eye with a fishhook." - Preyveil
"and yet still nothing has made it to BC's signature!"-KMD