So apparently that whole no guns thing in England isn't turning out so well

[Thanatos]

Launch into some pissy whine?  All I did was call you out on the fact that you said a bunch of insulting things surrounded by caveats and apologies.  Sorry to disappoint you, but nothing irritates me more than serious dick statements surrounded by smiley faces. 

I suppose my question hinges on a lingering bias of the American populace being the gun happy morons people outside the country are shown in movies, statistics and special reports on gun crime.

That's a pretty fucking offensive thing to say.  You can't just include "I might be biased!" and pretend it makes any statement okay.  To prove that, I'm going to go find a bunch of black guys and say, "Hey, can you try to explain away this lingering bias I have that black people are gun happy morons that white people are shown in movies, statistics, and special reports on gun crime?"  How do you think that would go for me, hmmm?

I recognize that you already apologized, and I'm not still attacking you over that statement; I'm just pointing out that I didn't burst into tears and call you a bunch of names as you seem to be trying to imply.  I thought you said something insulting crouched in flowery language, so I said so.  But hey, what do I know, apparently I have a self-important angry little persona and my head is up my ass.

Hmmm, reviewing my post, yeah, all I said was "I PLAY INTO STEREOTYPES, AND YOU SAID SOME DICK THINGS, AND GUNS CAN STOP CRIME."  Admittedly I said it like an asshole, but I say everything like an asshole.  Since your response is about three hundred times more insulting, HELLO POT MY NAME IS KETTLE YOU RAISED SOME GOOD POINTS ABOUT MY COLOR

To answer your question, I don't really believe in the spiritual essence of America in the sense that you mean it; America is just too big and diverse.  The reasons that Americans would own a gun are totally different depending on where you are; in some major cities (particularly in some neighborhoods, particularly after dark), I definitely would feel exposed and vulnerable without some means of defending myself, and IMO a gun is the best means of defending yourself.  However in areas in the south (even major cities like Charleston, SC) the attitude is much more colonial and people own guns so they can hunt and, yes, protect themselves from aggressors in the event that the government goes crazy, and just because they've always owned guns.  I can't really speak for anyone else, but when William Morva shot those two guys last fall (with a gun he took from a police officer) and then Cho Seung-Hui shot all those people six months ago, I was pretty damn happy we had a couple guns in the house.

I definitely don't think there's an attitude in America of owning a gun in the hopes of being able to use it.  I'm sure some people have that attitude, but there are crazies everywhere.  I've got a burglar alarm on my house too; I didn't buy that in the hopes that someone would break in and set it off.

[Solwyn]

I keep seeing the main character from SLC Punk when Than is ... well when he says anything in the debate forum. And that makes me smile.


Here's my take:

I don't know how ideologically diverse Scotland is, but I can say for sure that America is about as homogenous as a million gallons of oil and water.

I'd say right now we're close to an even split of people who think guns are the savior of western civilization and people who believe that melting all guns into pony statues is the only solution to war. Personally I'm in the middle (Guns don't kill people: they just make it a lot easier to kill people).

As far as the wild west gun culture, you have to remember that a large percentage of Americans came to this country before then and settled in the east, and an even larger amount settled here afterwards. Using myself as an example, my mom's side of the family has been here since at least 1840, because one of my ancestors is Ambrose B. White, the founder of Whitesboro, Texas. On my dad's side, his father is first generation American from France (via canada, which was the style at the time) and his mother is first generation American from Germany. So if anything my in-born ideology should be split right in half from frontier people to highly educated immigrants (engineers and pilots).

Personally, I think guns are awesome. I own a shotgun, but I keep a trigger lock on it. I don't own any handguns, and though I think they look neat I really see no need to purchase one. Someday I might get a CHL (concealed handgun license) but not because I intend to carry, because it makes gun ownership laws a lot simpler (in the state of Texas as long as you have a CHL all your gun registration stuff is simple and easy as you've already passed certification that you're not a wack job, so if it happens that someone wants to kill me I can buy a gun without having to live in fear for days).

That's just my opinion. I was always told that in Scotland it's downlight polite to throw a friend through a plate glass window. I don't know if that's a fair stereotype but I think violence is just an aspect of life, and modern life has new tools for violence. Would we be better with no guns? Maybe. But making them illegal will never stop them from existing: and as I think the point of the OP was here, these laws create a black market (or extend an already existing one).

[Thanatos]

Now I have to go see that movie to find out whether or not TO FLY INTO A MURDEROUS YET PETULANT RAGE

[TK]

Offensive? fuck Than  I didn't actually say the bias was mine, the wording in 'a lingering bias of' was deliberately chosen to be impersonally generic.  If I'd said 'my lingering bias of' I'd get your point, I'm perfectly aware that a very small percentage of Americans go around with a gun in their wasteband hoping to shoot people.  I'm trying to figure out whether I should be offended by the bias I was talking about or whether there's any truth in the lingering conceptual bias the rest of the world is expected to have about Americans.  I know that a lot of you guys see value in owning guns so I'm trying to explore the motivations for this value, your opinion has broadened that understanding; thank you.

I'm not implying that you burts into tears and started calling me names,  I'm probably saying that I'm in a bad mood and I took your reply with less of a customary pinch of salt that I ought to have and that your attempt at splitting hairs looked a lot like you taking offense for the sake of it and just spitting the dummy out.  Since I'd already admitted the validity of using a gun as a deterent your post read like it was a thinly veiled whine. The first line was just bad sarcasm so it pissed me off, in all I gave it poor marks as a Thanatos response^tm.

If you were anybody else I'd apologise for calling you a dick and being a dick to you but since you revel in being a dick, no hard feelings?

[TK]

I was always told that in Scotland it's downlight polite to throw a friend through a plate glass window. I don't know if that's a fair stereotype but I think violence is just an aspect of life, and modern life has new tools for violence. Would we be better with no guns? Maybe. But making them illegal will never stop them from existing: and as I think the point of the OP was here, these laws create a black market (or extend an already existing one).

Pretty much, Scotland can be a prime example of homogination through willful adherence to sterotype. 

For the record I think that making gun ownership illegal is an insanely stupid idea, a black market will exist in any model of gun ownership but proper checks, records and training for people who would be responsible gun owners are undermined by bans.  I'd own a gun myself I wouldn't keep it near me in bed or carry it with me because I feel safe enough in my community not to.  If I lived in a place where it was culturally acceptable or necessary to own guns I can see that my opinion would be markedly different but for now I don't see that me or my neighbours have any use for a gun.

I'm all for owning a gun if you can prove you aren't a psycho and wholeheartedly agree with the sentiment that guns really only make it easier to kill people, it's the psycology of the gun owner that makes them dangerous.  My main issue with gun ownership would be in giving guns to those who might crack and use them or people using a gun when it's not nessesary.  There's a huge amount of implied trust in allowing someone to carry a gun and a vast amount of room for error when giving that gun to people so I can see why the British government took the monumentally stupid task of burying thier heads in the sand instead of trying to detangle the issue.

[Solwyn]

I guess the best way to explain my opinion on gun-control is that it should exist but be limited. I think every gun should be registered, hunting or not. I don't think there should be a waiting period.

A lot of people argue that you shouldn't have to register, because now the government knows you have a gun. Seriously? If you're worried about the government having too much power, them knowing you own a weapon should be something that makes them fear you, especially in the case of some manner of reprisal. The waiting period I'm against because I think that if you need to purchase one to protect yourself the waiting period is completely counter-intuitive and makes the person trying to legally purchase a gun a target for gun crime.

Here's my idea: anyone who wants to own a gun has to go through a certification test, like the CHL here in Texas. You have to prove you know the basics of gun maintenance, laws, firing, practice, and above all: safety. You should be required to know how to use gun locks and safe places to store ammo, especially if you have kids. All that being said, I don't think you should be required to purchase any of those safety measures, but be aware of the availability of them so if something bad happens you're legally liable and can't claim ignorance.

During this certification you'd also have to have a background check, maybe a limited psychological evaluation. Then if you pass all that, you are a lifetime member of the gun club. You'll only have to verify your membership to purchase anything. That way if you do snap or something happens long after you've proven your stability, the authorities know where to find you and track the use of your weapon. With that being said I think you should be able to have a tiered certification, for weapons all the way from bolt-action hunting rifles to automatic weapons for self-defense, provided you can prove that you're capable of responsibly handling those weapons.

Just my 2 pieces of copper.

[BlueCross]

One of my Hunters own a gun, but the other uses a bow.

Haven't decided about my Warriors yet...

[Solwyn]

It's all about the stats with non-ranged characters. Just go with what has the best.

[Thanatos]

Yeah, it's all good TK.  I flew off the handle like a jackass too; for the record, I'm not some kind of psychotic provincialist.  It wasn't the perceived insult to America that made me all pissy; I hate it when people are dismissive or insulting while acting like they're not being a dick, and I erroneously interpreted your statements to that effect.  I feel very strongly that people should be straightforward about their dickitude.  So, yeah, my bad, peace and love, etc.

[BlueCross]

Yeah, it's all good TK.  I flew off the handle like a jackass too; for the record, I'm not some kind of psychotic provincialist.  It wasn't the perceived insult to America that made me all pissy; I hate it when people are dismissive or insulting while acting like they're not being a dick, and I erroneously interpreted your statements to that effect.  I feel very strongly that people should be straightforward about their dickitude.  So, yeah, my bad, peace and love, etc.

Your entire argument absolutely sucks but that's because you are a moron.  Luckily, I have the moral high ground here.

[Doombot]

One of my Hunters own a gun, but the other uses a bow.

Haven't decided about my Warriors yet...

Warriors come out to play Come out to plaaaaa aayyy ayyyy ayyy

[Brugdor]

I leave the debate forum and yet my legacy lives on

*chuckle*

 

[Night Owl]

I can't really speak for anyone else, but when William Morva shot those two guys last fall (with a gun he took from a police officer) and then Cho Seung-Hui shot all those people six months ago, I was pretty damn happy we had a couple guns in the house.

I have a .44 rifle, a shotgun, and a .38 handgun (concealed carry permit for the handgun. However, I prettymuch never carry it.)

I hope to never have to use them against another human. But you know, if the time comes where they might be necessary, I'm sure I'll be happy that I had the foresight to purchase them. You never know what's going to happen in a disaster, long-term power outage, etc.

I'll put it to you this way - I'm a law abiding citizen, but even more important, I am *not* an easy mark for someone who isn't. 

[Night Owl]

To answer your question, I don't really believe in the spiritual essence of America in the sense that you mean it; America is just too big and diverse. 

I try to tell people this all the time when they try to pinpoint "Americans". It's almost impossible. This country is so big and diverse, it just boggles the mind. It's like saying "Europeans".

[Solwyn]

I try to tell people this all the time when they try to pinpoint "Americans". It's almost impossible. This country is so big and diverse, it just boggles the mind. It's like saying "Europeans".

Considering we're "colonial" and that we're about equidistant from two large landmasses of immigrants, I'd say it's more like saying "Eurasians."

The only thing all Americans agree on is that they want to live here. People bitch about it, but to be honest if they really didn't want to live here it's fairly easy to move, so they're just bitching.