"I was only 9"

[Brugdor]

http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0430jm.html

Perspective

"Nobody should hold the junior senator from Illinois responsible for his friends’ and supporters’ violent terrorist acts. But it is fair to hold him responsible for a startling lack of judgment in his choice of mentors, associates, and friends, and for showing a callous disregard for the lives they damaged and the hatred they have demonstrated for this country. It is fair, too, to ask what those choices say about Obama’s own beliefs, his philosophy, and the direction he would take our nation."

[Solwyn]

Powerful stuff, hatred.

[Chucara]

Wow.. I realise now that I should have chosen my classmates better in kindergarten, as some of them later grew up to sell drugs. How could I be so Al-Queda naive?

[Brugdor]

Wow.. I realise now that I should have chosen my classmates better in kindergarten, as some of them later grew up to sell drugs. How could I be so Al-Queda naive?

*headscratch*

How is that remotely the same as Obama, as an adult, choosing to associate with someone that has no remorse about terrorist attacks he committed in the past?

[Chucara]

I misread the article, but reading about Bill Ayers from other sources, he doesn't seem to be quite the bad guy he is made to be in that article. Also, he was never convicted of anything.

Second, what are the close ties the two share? Both members of a fund board. Oh, and Ayers pledged $200 to to the Obama re-election campaign.

It this is the worst 'dirt' they can dig up on Obama, he must be a saint.

[Brugdor]

I misread the article, but reading about Bill Ayers from other sources, he doesn't seem to be quite the bad guy he is made to be in that article. Also, he was never convicted of anything.

Second, what are the close ties the two share? Both members of a fund board. Oh, and Ayers pledged $200 to to the Obama re-election campaign.

It this is the worst 'dirt' they can dig up on Obama, he must be a saint.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0420chapmanapr20,1,2975893.column

There's more to it than Obama and his supporters are letting on.

From the link

Obama minimized his relationship by acknowledging only that he knows Ayers. But they have quite a bit more of a connection than that. He's appeared on panels with Ayers, served on a foundation board with him and held a 1995 campaign event at the home of Ayers and his wife, fellow former terrorist Bernardine Dohrn. Ayers even gave money to one of his campaigns.

And to your point about Ayers never being convicted, that was because of botched procedure from the feds if I'm not mistaken. In his own words, "I don't regret setting bombs. I feel we didn't do enough."

[Chucara]

I can't follow Obama's campaign as well as you can, but from what I can read online, the original article seems extremely biased. Therefore, I have troubles determining which of it is the truth, which are exaggerated truths, and which are lies. From more neutral articles (wikipedia, The Guardian uk, etc.) the link  doesn't seem all that strong. They sit on the same board for a foundation, their kids share schools, and a few other things. If that makes Obama a bad president, guess Hillary must be too, as Bill Clinton exonerated Susan Rosenberg and Linda Sue Evans (convicted Weathermen members) before leaving office in 2001.

That leaves only McCain, and I'm sure you don't have to go to his friends or acquaintances to find someone immoral in that group.

[Brugdor]

I can't follow Obama's campaign as well as you can, but from what I can read online, the original article seems extremely biased. Therefore, I have troubles determining which of it is the truth, which are exaggerated truths, and which are lies. From more neutral articles (wikipedia, The Guardian uk, etc.) the link  doesn't seem all that strong. They sit on the same board for a foundation, their kids share schools, and a few other things. If that makes Obama a bad president, guess Hillary must be too, as Bill Clinton exonerated Susan Rosenberg and Linda Sue Evans (convicted Weathermen members) before leaving office in 2001.

That leaves only McCain, and I'm sure you don't have to go to his friends or acquaintances to find someone immoral in that group.

I

I never made the point that Hillary and McCain don't have issues similar to these. I think I've made it well known here that I consider all three of them to be political whores.  I just don't see why our political far left is so against Obama's issues being pointed out. His response of "I was only 8" was a weak response when he was asked about his connection to Ayers and now the man who was a child in the family Ayers tried to kill is responding to that statement. Of course it's a biased article. The guy was almost killed by Obama's buddy.

McCain is in favor of amnesty for illegals here and my posts in the past on that subject make it clear how I feel about him and amnesty. Of course, like one person here did at the time, he threw out the race card early by calling everyone against his amnesty a racist. He also still won't admit it was amnesty. However that issue seems a lost cause because all three candidates will pass an amnesty bill (even though McCain says that he has changed his position). So I guess we'll just see what the long term fallout is from giving away citizenship to people that, for the most part, have absolutely no loyalty to the country. A small percentage of them actually favor some sort of revolution (that would be the "La Raza" crowd).

Do I even need to explore the reasons I can't stand Hillary? Even the political far left has now decided that the political right was right about the Clintons all these years.  You'd be hard pressed to find two sleazier politicians anywhere in the world than Bill and Hillary.

[Chucara]

I agree with you that neither candidate is the best possible person for the job, problem is: the best possible person for the job wouldn't want it, or couldn't find the backing.

I'm just saying that it doesn't substract (for me at least) from my opinion of Obama that he might be an acquaintance of someone who was a extreme political activist during the Vietnam war. Not that I condone Ayers' actions, I just don't think they are relevant in this case. There are a lot worse things about Obama than him perhaps being a friend of a 60s 'terrorist'. (I use the quotes not to indicate that I disagree with him being a terrorist, but rather because I think that label is being slapped on anything that moves these days).

From where I'm standing (across the Atlantic) Obama seems like the best candidate of those remaining, but perhaps 'least worst' is a better expression. I've said it before, but I really don't like the election system in the US. Now, I realize that as a European, I am a leftwing liberalist by default, but it seems like money has an awful lot to say in the elections, which they ideally shouldn't have. Money (candidacy budget) is also a factor here when it comes to elections, but nowhere nearly as much as (it seems like) it is in the US.

The general attitude towards the US has actually improved a lot here over the last year or so. From the "those idiots elected Bush twice" to "poor saps, now he's gone and ruined their economy - we hope they get someone better the next time". This is naturally a completely unfair overgeneralisation, but Bush really had a tremendous impact on Danes' (and I suspect many other Europeans') image of the US.

[Brugdor]

I've said it before, but I really don't like the election system in the US. Now, I realize that as a European, I am a leftwing liberalist by default, but it seems like money has an awful lot to say in the elections, which they ideally shouldn't have. Money (candidacy budget) is also a factor here when it comes to elections, but nowhere nearly as much as (it seems like) it is in the US.

Which is the primary reason I put the original post up. I feel that many people on the left here consider Obama above the same old political games that have been going on here for years. It's like he can do no wrong and nothing about him should be questioned. It's obvious McCain and Hillary are political whores but for some reason Obama gets a free pass. I just feel obligated to point out that he isn't any better than the other two.

My personal belief is that a vote for any of the three of them is meaningless because it just means the voter has bought into the same old system that's left us where we are. Nothing will change unless we change the way things are done by opting out of the two party system that's presented to us.

[Chucara]

It's obvious McCain and Hillary are political whores but for some reason Obama gets a free pass. I just feel obligated to point out that he isn't any better than the other two.

A fool in the company of greater fools seems the wise man.

This is also why I keep coming back to the UV *runs*

Wait.. Did I just call myself a fool? Oh well, as long as I'm looking good by comparision *shrugs*

[Brugdor]

I can't follow Obama's campaign as well as you can, but from what I can read online, the original article seems extremely biased. Therefore, I have troubles determining which of it is the truth, which are exaggerated truths, and which are lies. From more neutral articles (wikipedia, The Guardian uk, etc.) the link  doesn't seem all that strong. They sit on the same board for a foundation, their kids share schools, and a few other things. If that makes Obama a bad president, guess Hillary must be too, as Bill Clinton exonerated Susan Rosenberg and Linda Sue Evans (convicted Weathermen members) before leaving office in 2001.

That leaves only McCain, and I'm sure you don't have to go to his friends or acquaintances to find someone immoral in that group.

Coming all the way back to this for an update. Now that the election is over Ayers has come out and admitted Obama was a "family friend".

http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1278532,bill-ayers-barack-obama-book-111308.article

“We had served together on the board of a foundation, knew one another as neighbors and family friends, held an initial fund-raiser at my house, where I’d made a small donation to his earliest political campaign,” he writes.

More at link

So pretty much every single thing Obama has claimed about his relationship with this guy to minimalize it is complete bull crap.

Let the excuse making begin!

[Celest]

*shrugs* never bought into the guilt by association deal which is pretty much what the whole Ayers and Wright deal was about in the first place. It's nothing more than attacking him for acts that he played no part in. For example, I know someone who served time for murder but that doesnt make me a bad person for knowing someone who commited murder. Just like it doesnt make me a bad person because I know bigots and racists either. I disagree with them but outside of those issues I have no problem with them.

That said, I've always said the Obama will likely be a JFK figure.. great charisma, will be remembered fondly because of his personal skills but overall will have a so so presidency. He has the chance to establish himself as an FDR figure(right person for the right time) but I really don't think he will have the gumption to pick the ball up and run.

If McCain didnt sell himself out then it would have been a non issue for me to choose(I like McCain 2000) but since he pretty much did a 180 on the majority of the issues he used to stand on.. well eh, picked based on the supream court and th eneed to maintain balance there(with the real prospect of two Liberal judges retiring. We cannot afford to have the supream court with a clear biased(liberal or conservative) because one way legislates from the bench while the other way takes the law into an inhuman perspective that doesnt regard circumstances which is bad when it comes to protecting minorities from an unjust majority).

[Brugdor]

*shrugs* never bought into the guilt by association deal which is pretty much what the whole Ayers and Wright deal was about in the first place. It's nothing more than attacking him for acts that he played no part in. For example, I know someone who served time for murder but that doesnt make me a bad person for knowing someone who commited murder. Just like it doesnt make me a bad person because I know bigots and racists either. I disagree with them but outside of those issues I have no problem with them.

Is the person you know sorry they committed the murder or do they wish they had committed more murders? Like it or not, your associations say a lot about you and Obama's aren't good at all. The only reason Ayers didn't spend time behind bars was because the cops investigating the case were overzealous. So he got out of it on a technicality. A valid one but a technicality none the less.

What does it say about Obama that he lied about his friendship with Ayers this entire time? He obviously knew there was something to hide.

And I agree that McCain wasn't a good option either.

[Celest]

Well a couple of issues there:

1) It's still condemning someone for actions they never commited just because they know someone who did.

2) That's assuming that you instantly know everything about everyone the moment you meet them to decide whether or not you want to associate with them. It is very easy to get to know someone and actually like them and find out that they have a checkered past and I'm not one to throw away a decent friendship just because the people I have came to know made mistakes or did something wrong in the past. It's what they are doing now that matters the most.

3) It's perfectly reasonable to be able to say to someone that you dont agree with something they said or did and still be able to maintain a friendship with them. Again, I know racists. I tell them that I don't agree with their racism but outside of that, they are good individuals and just because I know them doesnt make me a racist by default.